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> Under the DMA, app developers distributing their apps via Apple's App Store should be able to inform customers, free of charge, of alternative offers outside the App Store, steer them to those offers and allow them to make purchases.

To me, this is the most easily agreeable part of what the EU has been after. It is unfair that Apple restricts Netflix from telling it's users that they can sign up and pay for Netlifx on their own website. It's unfair that Netflix can't even tell its users the rules that Apple enforces on them.

It's telling that Gruber is pretty staunchly against EU/DMA interferance in Apple, and broadly thinks they're wrong. But this is the one thing he agrees on

> If Apple wants to insist on a cut of in-app purchased subscription revenue, that’s their prerogative. What gets me, though, are the rules that prevent apps that eschew in-app purchases from telling users in plain language how to actually pay. Not only is Netflix not allowed to link to their website, they can’t even tell the user they need to go to netflix.com to sign up

https://daringfireball.net/2019/01/netflix_itunes_billing

https://daringfireball.net/2020/07/parsing_cooks_opening_sta...

(I think Apple now has their 'reader app' carveout for apps like Netflix, but it's still pretty obtuse and inconsistent)

Also, https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_25_...

> The Commission takes the preliminary view that Apple failed to comply with this obligation [to allow third party app stores] in view of the conditions it imposes on app (and app store) developers. Developers wanting to use alternative app distribution channels on iOS are disincentivised from doing so as this requires them to opt for business terms which include a new fee (Apple's Core Technology Fee). Apple also introduced overly strict eligibility requirements, hampering developers' ability to distribute their apps through alternative channels. Finally, Apple makes it overly burdensome and confusing for end users to install apps when using such alternative app distribution channels.

This is great to hear. It sounds like they've just found Apple non-compliant in making alternate app stores as discouraging for both developers and user as possible. I guess it'll take another 12 months for any fines or changes from Apple.

The two companies have two months to comply, or there will be daily fines.

I don't think so - they’ve only been fined for the in-app anti-steering provisions.

For the second App Marketplace issue, I think that’s just a preliminary finding and is going to take longer to work out

> Apple now has the possibility to exercise its rights of defence by examining the documents in the Commission's investigation file and by responding to the preliminary findings

Hm, maybe, I'm just going by what the article says:

> The companies have two months to comply with the orders or risk daily fines.

Maybe they got it wrong, though.

I think you're both sort of right.

The orders in question here are 1 for Apple (the one that made circumventing Apple payments super difficult) and 1 for Meta (their ad-free subscription service). Meta and Apple have to comply with those within 2 months.

The preliminary finding on sideloading apps isn't subject to that 2 month compliance deadline from what I can tell.

Will the fines be large enough to matter? The headline number of 570M looks like pocket change.

It only costs 570MM a year to retain my iron grip monopoly on the AppStore? Let me find my checkbook…

>the most easily agreeable part of what the EU has been after

It's also probably the most dangerous for Apple. It creates a cash incentive to push people outside of Apple's walled garden and show them what's outside.

I really really hope Apple gets its act together, they are the greatest "the user experience comes first" company and they actually have great hard tech but they show signs of rent seeking behavior which can destroy them.

If Apple just play nice with EU, open up and focus on bringing the greatest experience possible they will keep winning. If not, they will have blunders and they will lose Europe since people are willing to look for alternatives as USA gets increasingly unpopular among the Europeans due to politics.

The Apple's AI blunder is mostly a blunder only because they insist to do it all by themselves so to have higher margins on the services revenues. IMHO those blunders will be more damaging as the Americans no longer have the higher moral grounds than Koreans or Chinese.

I hope Apple is treading carefully.

> show signs of rent seeking

They've been hard rent-seeking since iTunes and iPod. They aggressively eliminated and made inconvenient other ways for getting music onto iPods. Hardware was great, but hard dependence on iTunes killed it for me.

"Show signs of rent seeking behaviour" seems like an extremely generous position. Forbidding your customers from even mentioning The Outside is full-on rent seeking behaviour, since its inception.

To steel man the policy, one thing it helps avoid is the free rider problem. Apples store terms are than free apps don’t pay a commission to Apple. But someone has to pay for the costs of developing the SDKs and the platform. We no longer live in an age where Apple or Microsoft gets away with charging for multi thousand dollar per year per seat developer license for their platforms, but that doesn’t mean those platforms don’t cost money to develop and maintain. So the idea is, if you make money on the platform, so does Apple. But free apps + in app downloads is a giant loophole in that plan. Sure we all think of Netflix or Kindle apps when we think of this, but without a policy that charges for IAP and discourages or outright forbids steering off the platform, we would see a new category of “freemium” apps where the app is “free” on the App Store, but is effectively just an empty downloader shell that you then have to buy the “real” app through. Unscrupulous devs steer you to their own outside store or put some ridiculous inside the App Store price (think 300x+ markup) with a link to the outside store with the cheaper price and all those customers are transacting, and Apple gets no money for funding their platform.

And yes I know we can all scoff and say “oh poor multi-billion dollar Apple can’t get paid but getting paid is exactly how Apple is a multibillion dollar company. So if they don’t get it from IAP and app sales fees then they’re going to extract it either from hardware prices, or for charging those per seat per year dev licenses again.

Personally I think Apple is big enough now and the App Store is popular enough now they can revisit this but somehow they are going to want to solve the free rider problem, and whatever they pick, people won’t be happy (see also core technology fee)

> solve the free rider problem

This framing just doesn't register. You want developers to develop apps for your product, app availability is what makes users choose to buy the hardware/use the OS. They're not "free riding", they're what makes your product worth buying.

The "free riders" aren't developers in general, they're the developers not paying for their portion of the upkeep. Like I said, someone has to pay for the dev work that goes into making the platform, building the SDKs and maintaining the whole thing. No one works for free. So Apple can get that paid for either by charging more for hardware, charging for access to the dev kits, or taking a cut of sales for products produced with those dev kits. Apple chose the later.

So now they have a problem, not all software is monetized. You want to have the ability for people to choose to distribute software for free. Open source projects, educational, charity, and also "accessory apps" (think your bank app). But you don't want to charge developers money that they're not making. Imagine the shit storm Apple would stir up if they just started charging free apps a monthly fee to be listed in the app store at all. You also want to have young and new developers without a lot of capital to have access (that's why so many companies used to offer student discounts). But the problem becomes how do you allow that, and also allow in app downloads and purchases without every developer just having a "free" downloader app that then downloads the real application code that you pay for separately?

Let's say you sell a dev tool. And you decide you want to support open source projects, so you offer free licenses to any open source project. Would it satisfy your licensing if some company that had an "open source" curl wrapper that downloaded and executed binary blobs for which there was no source code? I doubt it. You'd rightfully say that an app that does nothing except download and launch closed source binary blobs is not in and of itself an open source project for the purposes of your license. It's the same basic idea for Apple. An app that only serves to download or unlock the "real" app after you pay the developer in a separate external transaction is not a "free" app of the sort Apple intends to allow. So they don't allow external transactions at all except for a narrow set of circumstances, and in those cases they don't allow steering. This maximizes the number of developers who are funding the costs of the platform, reducing the overall cost for all the developers who are paying and subsidizing a limited set of developers who are distributing free applications.

Or to try one other way of thinking about it, everyone hates the "freemium" business model. How much crappier would it be knowing that all the "freemium" games were paying absolutely nothing, but everyone who chooses not to engage in the freemium model still had to pay 15-30% to apple on their revenue?

Ultimately all the money Apple is making from the store comes from the pockets of people. If apps won't have to pay a cut to Apple, people would be left with more money in their pockets.

If all apps were free and no sales would be forced to go through those apps, Apple still sells the phones and makes money from them. Would it be left with less money? Not my problem. Would it increase the cost of phones (maybe only in the EU) to compensate the missing revenues? Fair. Let's see how it affects sales.

> Would it increase the cost of phones (maybe only in the EU) to compensate the missing revenues?

Probably not "fair" since the EU seems opposed to their "core technology fee", which is (supposedly) a fee to the developers to compensate for the missing revenues. And if the EU allowed raising prices in EU counties to offset that lost revenue, but didn't allow the core tech fee, that would effectively be the EU outlawing making your money on software rather than on hardware. It seems more likely the EU would just demand continued subsidized access to the same services, like they already did with facebook.

That logic doesn't work for me.

The person who paid for the sdk is the person who bought the iphone.

Typically the definition of free riding requires that if everyone behaved like the free riders, then the system would cease to exist.

If apple made $0 off the app store, would they still make iphones? I would assume yes since they are profitable devices. Hence this isn't free riding.

> If not, they will have blunders and they will lose Europe since people are willing to look for alternatives as USA gets increasingly unpopular among the Europeans due to politics.

But what alternative? There is no European smartphone OS. Windows and Steam OS and XBox are US-american, too.

I suppose Linux, Playstation, and Nintendo, then?

The alternatives are Samsung, Xiaomi, Oppo and others. Already the dominant brands in Europe. It doesn't have to be European, it has to be good and those are pretty good at much cheaper prices. They also offer premium models that Apple doesn't have a match.

People pay a lot extra for the feelings the brand invokes in them. Tesla was like that when it was about the values it used to represent, right after Musk dropped those values they had to start pricing their vehicles based on the specs to compete with similarly specced alternatives.

If Apple goes into fight with EU and becomes the "anti-european tech giant" they will have to start selling 300 euro iPhones.

American brands should tread carefully: while America is willing to ban their (cheaper, sometimes better) competitors, Europe is much less willing to — especially now as America itself has taken a much more bullying tone towards its allies.

There is android. Works pretty well in China without any google services.

Wouldn't be sad about a Linux smartphone.

My dream is to run NixOS in all my devices…

With all apps being sandboxed, though, please!

I know it would leave a lot of money on the table, but if Apple had set the app store fee at 5% (enough to cover credit card fees and running the service) and been content with a 50% margin on hardware, it never would have been in this mess.

Even 15% would probably have been universally accepted.

I would imagine that getting the user out of the in-app purchase payment screen and attempt to redirect them at the website for payment, have them figure out how to enter credit card details etc would result in a drastically decreased conversion rate though.

So it should! Then Apple's App Store and IAP could compete on its own merits, rather than restricting competition from existing at all.

Apple does compete on its own merits. Its merits are that it built and controls the operating system and hardware that people choose to buy.

If other companies have an issue, then they can build their own software, their own hardware, and compete.

Companies don’t make laws (unless you live somewhere like the US); people do. If the people say “stop fucking around and rent-seeking” then companies should have to do that. It’s pretty simple, really. Just because you build your own hardware and software doesn’t give you the right to do whatever you want.

Apple is free to leave the European market if it doesn’t like the rules.

I bet the Robber Barons said something like “Don’t like it? Build your own railway!” too.

Imagine a major streaming service: Subscription through Apple 30USD/Month or 25USD/Month if you do it through this one click fintech app.

The fintech app can even pay the streaming service for every customer they bring.

So for the users who already have the fintech app its a no-brainer, click once and get a free coffee each month. For those who don't have the app already it can push them to create an account as they see it on every app as a cheaper alternative. In Europe at least, even traditional banks are able to create a new customer account through a few steps in the in the app. It's usually just about entering your name, taking a photo of your ID and then scanning your face by looking left and right on the camera. You can have a grace period to add the funds for the subscription.

Banks already pay a lot of money for new customers, its pretty common in some places to offer interest-free loans or give cashbacks when you create a bank account through the app. They can partner with those services to offer months of free use or upgrades and then suddenly the value for the trouble of a few click and a scan goes up substantially.

The money comes first (:

Apple has its act together. Those, who are not Apple, do not in comparison. They are Big Mad that Apple does.

You don't understand the term "rent seeking". Because in this case, it's Apple's competitors that are rent seeking by utilizing the force of the government to make Apple give competitors access to its private but non-monopolistic ecosystem.

I think that Apple should call that bluff and leave the EU.

Which in turn will increase public pressure on the EU, but not as functionally as it would in a democratic system.

All hollow talk. It will lose all of its aggression the moment that Apple leaves the EU, and EU citizens are left with the remaining options.

Totally, the Spaniards are on the edge against EU for forcing Apple to allow competing services on %25 of the smartphones they use. Madrid is pouring police force into Barcelona as we speak as the Catalans started burning cars on the streets against the unelected bureaucrats threatening them to give App Store alternatives to every 4th smartphone. Unjustified violence by the police is being reported against people who don't want to know about cheaper payment options. The situation is considered stable at this point but I don't think that EU will survive if Apple pulls out of EU. The president of the EU commission was caught mumbling at the mic "Ich hoffe, Apple ruft nicht an oder blufft, sonst ist alles verloren." which roughly translates to "I hope Apple doesn't call or bluff or all is lost" in Bavarian.

Interested in learning more, do you have links to the sources?

It's joke :) It was impossible to give it a serious reply, so...

They're being facetious.

But here's a source for future readers: https://justpaste.it/jog4v

That might be a very risky bet. Currently a lot of people are looking for alternatives of US products, if Apple gets out of the EU, it might not be that easy to get back as the market might have drastically shifted.

>private but non-monopolistic ecosystem.

Isn't it a monopoly over Iphone users?

People like you keep forgetting that the EU is the single largest consumer market in the world. This does not mean that Apple gets most of it revenue from the EU, but it's still a sweet $90B in 2024.

In which world does a company give up on close to $100B in revenue out of spite?

In a hypothetical world where it threatens $1T of revenue.

The app store monopoly is being threatened everywhere that isn't America.

Dude the force of government is us, democratically voting, in a free society. Either respect our law, or don't do business here.

> It's telling that Gruber is pretty staunchly against EU/DMA interferance in Apple, and broadly thinks they're wrong. But this is the one thing he agree on

I’ve stopped seeing Gruber as any sort of authority on Apple for a while now. He’s just a single guy with an opinion like everyone else, and it’s, more times than not, clearly biased in favor of Apple.

Some of his analysis of objective data is informative, but when he gets into subjective material, I tune out. I don’t really care any more about what he says than most others sharing their opinion on the internet — it’s just one more data point to consider collectively alongside everyone else’s.

I agree with your overall comment, but I think this is basically what OP was getting at: it's not surprising that Gruber is against EU/DMA interference, yet even he has issues with this particular point.

I liked his piece on the Apple AI debacle, I figure if he is criticising Apple for that then there is something to the complaints.

What I really dislike and the reason I don't subscribe to his feed is the politics.

Elon was very vocal about this, he asked subscribers to directly buy from the website. There’s a 30% discount.

And to the products that need the carveouts the most, small fledgling apps where the margin matters intensely, it’s not available.

Aren't Americans always going on about free speech?

Technically, the first amendment applies only to state actors, not private entities. See Manhattan Community Access Corp. v. Halleck, Hudgens v. NLRB, and many other cases that upheld this interpretation. Private companies like Apple can restrict free speech on their platforms legally (at least as far as the first amendment is concerned).

That said, I believe in the principle of free speech, especially as envisioned by Tim Berners Lee for the Web. I wish more Americans could adhere to those principles even when the speech is not to their taste. Certainly feels like a lot of cultural backsliding happening.

> Technically, the first amendment applies only to state actors, not private entities.

That's probably not what the person you're responding to is talking about.

Americans have this unfortunate tendency to harp on and on about 'free speech' in contexts where the first amendment obviously does not apply, or, even more intriguingly/ironically, where the first amendment pretty clearly states the exact opposite.

For example, if some non-government-owned platform (such as a social network) bans a user, and that user says "My free speech rights are being infringed".

Whereas what the 1A actually states is the exact opposite: That platform has the right to ban that user, and the government is constitutionally restrained: If the government were to make a law that forces this social network to unban this user, that'd be the 1A violation.

Then there are only 3 options:

1. That user wildly misunderstands free speech. And given how common this is, 'most americans' is perhaps [citation needed] but the sentiment is understandable. It's not just that "My free speech!" is so common, it's also that articles about some incident pretty much never talk about this. Lawyers, legal wonks, legal podcasts that sort of thing - they talk about it, but, niche audience.

2. The meaning of 'free speech' in the sentence 'this social network has banned me; my free speech is being infringed' is not referring to 1A but to the concept as a general principle; a principle that is orthogonal, or even mutually exclusive with, the definition of 'free speech' the way 1A intends it.

3. They know exactly what 1A means but they are lying through their teeth in order to get some internet group ragin' going on.

If we make a habit of assuming good intentions, the nicest choice is option 2.

The somewhat famous "Section 230" covers part of this, and explains some of the pragmatic reasoning behind MCAC v Halleck: If you hold private companies responsible for having infringed free speech rights, then private companies are going to bend over backwards making clear they are not going to moderate. Anything. For any reason. Legal reasons, you see.

It's a combination of 1 and 2 for the most part.

There's a lot of nuance lost when the Bill of Rights is being taught in US grade schools. Most kids read each of the amendments but then are given a simplified interpretation. "The first amendment guarantees a right to free speech" would have been correct enough for a test answer when I was in school, although it loses enough nuance to frequently be incorrect, because people often presume that equates to "I can say what I want without consequence and the government will protect my ability to do it", when it more accurately should probably be taught as "the government has a limited ability to meddle in other's speech"

The net effect is both that people misunderstand the 1st amendment, and they also believe that what they thought it meant is an important value.

    > Whereas what the 1A actually 
    > states is the exact opposite:
    > That platform has the right to
    > ban that user, and the
    > government is constitutionally
    > restrained: If the government
    > were to make a law that forces
    > this social network to unban
    > this user, that'd be the 1A
    > violation.

This principle is obvious if I was running a newspaper and printing user-submitted comments. I can have whatever inclusion policy I deem fit, or my own speech would be curtailed.

But this is now being applied by private companies in cases wildly removed from that. Meta er whoever can ban two users having a private conversation on their platform.

It seems to me that the private bridge builder in the example above has a stronger case than these companies in such cases.

Perhaps I overhear that you dislike fast-food, and I only sell billboard space to fast-food companies.

Or perhaps you think that would be just fine, and we just need to close the technological gap of being able to embed hypersensitive microphones into asphalt.

[dead]

> Then there are only 3 options

I can imagine at least one more:

4. Americans believe companies too frequently do the government's bidding, and by allowing corporations to suppress speech, they're allowing the government to exploit that and indirectly violate their direct 1A rights.

> I don't understand what you're on about.

Likewise, I think we have a miscommunication here because I agree with everything you wrote.

I'm not making a legal argument about free speech at all. I agree with your analysis on the legality there. Now that said, I do think the Biden admin crossed the line of legality with their collaboration (and a little implied threatening) Twitter and Facebook, and their whole establishing an office whose job it was to report "disinformation" on social media to the tech giants.

I'm speaking culturally. To go back to the Lab Leak Theory example when Youtube was taking down any videos that even mentioned it (even if the mentioner was a well-respected Evolutionary Biologist) wasn't illegal, but it was a total abandonment of free speech principles. It feels like it's abated quite a bit in the last year or two, but for a while there, there were ideological rakes all over the place that any mention of would get your content taken down by big tech.

Now all that being said, I do think there's a point at which the line between private corp and government starts to blur, and I do think big tech is approaching that line. For most of history, no corporation could even approach the level of power over our lives as government, but increasingly they are getting so powerful that we can't even function in society without them. I think we're approaching or past the point where regulation and/or breaking them apart is necessary to reduce the amount of power that they have over us.

> To go back to the Lab Leak Theory example when Youtube was taking down any videos that even mentioned it (even if the mentioner was a well-respected Evolutionary Biologist) wasn't illegal, but it was a total abandonment of free speech principles.

Not really, this is a case where two cooperating parties, who both have speech rights, have a dispute about which speech they collectively want to espouse.

Unless you're saying that people should lose their speech rights when they form a business?

> Unless you're saying that people should lose their speech rights when they form a business?

I tried to make clear I wasn't making a legal argument, but since you mentioned it I will address it, but first I'll just say that no I'm not saying that people should lose their free speech rights when they form a business. I'm not sure how you got that from what I wrote, but no, legally they don't and shouldn't (with maybe one exception, mentioned next). What I have a problem with is the lack of cultural appreciation for free speech. Culturally, the powerful people at Youtube decided that free speech was not important, at least not as important as controlling the narrative and preventing the spread of ideas they considered "dangerous" (or whatever description they might provide). I think that's the mainstream cultural attitude in the USA today, and I think that's unfortunate. I wish that everyone would believe as I do, that free speech as a cultural value is important and should be honored and respected, especially when it's speech you disagree with.

But to the legal argument: When that "business" gets to be the size and scope of a company like Youtube, yes I do think some regulations (i.e. restrictions) on what they are allowed to impose on their users are reasonable. If we had a dozen small providers then I don't think there's any need for regulation there because the market competition will provide a powerful check on potential abuse, but Youtube is an entrenched behemoth with a giant moat. At that scale, the amount of power they have over the people is immense, and IMHO approaches that of the government, and therefore there need to be some checks on that power.

I do also think the "compelled speech" defense for Youtube et al is a bit of a stretch. I agree that compelled speech is not ok and is just as bad as restricted speech. However, I do see a difference between being a communication service and someone being compelled to say certain speech. I would strongly oppose an attempt to compel Youtube the company to say something, but I don't think somebody having a channel that is clearly attributed to themselves and not to the parent company, is the equivalent of forcing Youtube the company to say something specific.

For example, imagine a world where the telephone system operators got to decide which speech was permitted on their phone lines. They had people listening in the conversation and "moderating" by cutting off the live feed if the topic veered into something they disagreed with, and any voicemails/recordings made were also deleted and scrubbed so the recipients wouldn't hear the wrong think. In that scenario would you defend the rights of the phone company not to host "compelled" speech that they disagree with? Compelled speech would be forcing the company themselves to say something. Them passing the electricity on the wire (aka being a "dumb pipe") is not the same thing.

I also think the argument falls apart when taken to it's logical extent. Who decides what speech they are "compelled" to host? If I make a Youtube video and say "I support <presidential candidate not favored by the company>" are they being compelled to say that? I don't think so.

> I tried to make clear I wasn't making a legal argument

I know which is why I used the word "should" to indicate moral hypothetical and not existing law.

>I'm not sure how you got that from what I wrote

Because you said that a situation in which YouTube exercised the right to moderate their own platform was a "total abandonment of free speech principles".

But as you recognize, compelled speech is also a violation of free speech principles, and that is, whether either of us agree with it (I also don't entirely), it is also factually a free speech principle that is in balance here.

> For example, imagine a world where the telephone system operators got to decide which speech was permitted on their phone lines.

And we're back to the common carrier argument, which I think is more relevant to this conversation than a vague appeal to "free speech". Ultimately when the government grants monopolies to businesses, they start to become an effective arm of the government and should be regulated more in line with the rules that apply to government. I think we need to start classifying more of these platforms as common carriers and require them to carry all speech equally -- or break them up until the point they don't hold effective monopolies and/or wrongfully crush competitors.

Indeed, sounds like we're largely in agreement then.

> Because you said that a situation in which YouTube exercised the right to moderate their own platform was a "total abandonment of free speech principles"

True I did say that, and I'll definitely walk that one back a little bit. I didn't mean their moderation as a whole was the abandonment, I mainly meant their philosophical approach to it. (i.e. deciding that anything that goes contrary to the CDC/WHO narrative may not be discussed)

As an American who thinks free speech is one of the most important rights we have, I wish the answer to your question would be a collective "yes" but unfortunately it is not.

I don't understand what you're on about. The only laws that the USA has on the books that says anything about this are either [A] recently written state laws written as vehicles to virtue signal, particularly by DeSantis in Florida, or [B] the exact opposite.

For example, the first amendment indicates that apple doesn't just have the right to tell its users of its app store to say nothing about alternate payment methods. It goes further than that: The government must not tell Apple anything else. That's stretching 1A a bit; more likely 1A says nothing at all about what Apple is doing here.

"Free Speech" is a thing americans are fond of saying, but unfortunately, considering that 1A is often called 'the free speech amendment', what that actually means is usually unclear, and in this day and age, that means it gets weaponized: Folks start harping on about free speech and pick whatever of the many conflicting definitions so happens to suit their needs at that exact moment.

Evelyn Beatrice Hall was british, not american. She's the author of "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".

The thing about 1A and free speech in general: Forcing somebody to say something is just as bad as forcing somebody not to say something. And, once you start talking about non-governmental entities and 'free speech', those two things are at odds. After all, if the government tells some social network that they MUST NOT ban some user or delete some posting, that is compelled speech, and that's what I meant with '1A means the opposite of what you / this case / most americans think it means'. 1A protects the right of private companies to restrict your speech. It does not protect your right to have your speech protected from being suppressed, deleted, or otherwise restrained by private actors.

In America free speech is always limited to what "I find acceptable". There's an infinite number of things that lots of Americans will find unacceptable. Swearing is beeped/censored everywhere (even on youtube), songs release "explicit" and "clean" versions, nipples are blurred on TV, some words you can't say even in an educational or karaoke setting (N-word, R-word, etc.)

I don't disagree with you, but I do think it's important to distinguish between a censored swear word or nipple, and taking down an entire video because it mentions the Lab Leak Theory at a time when that was politically unacceptable. The former may be suppressing a small element of the "speech" but it's not (for the most part) restricting the expression/transmission of ideas. It's also a very firm and defined standard that is unambiguous (i.e. here is a list of words you can't say, use substitutes to convey meaning v. here is a list of opinions you aren't allowed to express). The latter on the other hand is absolutely the suppression of ideas, which IMHO is what "free speech" is really about and why it's so important.

If you extend "speech" to "any kind of action an individual or company can do", then no. There's plenty of laws regulations that restrict what you can do in USA.

Most people who go on about free speech are the ones who clamp down the most on it and are massive snowflakes when people decide not to buy their stuff because of their speech.

Sorry, Fox News changed its mind in January. Come back in 2 years and they'll be back to "pro free speech" (to mock minorities).

There is also the freedom to engage in a contact.

The freedom of speech isn't restricted, apple just isn't providing a platform to speak on.

This is an anti trust issue balance against two parties ability to be bound by contract.

Every American is pro free speech for the kind of speech they like.

Just never in a logically consistent manner.

Sure it is. Lots of us also go on about private property rights and freedom of association. Apple is restricting the behavior of entities doing business through them on a platform they own. The logic is that you remain free to speak - elsewhere. Meanwhile Apple remains free not to do business with you if you can't or won't accept their terms.

(Well really the legal argument is that Apple isn't the government and so the first amendment doesn't bind their policies but there's an ideological aspect in addition to the legal one.)

The issue missed by such an analysis is the outsized impact the megacorp has. Without strong competition (ie not a duopoly or even an oligopoly) regulation is required to protect consumers against practices that otherwise would be financially discouraged.

There are also a few other blindspots people here tend to have regarding regulation. In particular that sometimes detrimental behaviors exist that are perversely incentivized rather than discouraged by the market despite being obviously worse for consumers. A lot of people here seem to conveniently forget that such things are even within the realm of possibility.

and usually in a context where the concept they are thinking of (the constitution) doesn't apply (anywhere that isn't the government)

Free speech isn't good because it's in the Constitution, it's in the Constitution because it's good.

US officials and businessmen keep on repeating the same thing:

> The European Commission is attempting to handicap successful American businesses while allowing Chinese and European companies to operate under different standards.

But this is wildly untrue. The EU isn't hand-picking individual organisations and fining them because they're American, they're fining them because they're in breach of existing legislation. The same legislation applies to local companies.

Ironically, it's the US who takes stances like the one they claim the EU is taken. E.g.: The US required that TikTok be sold, without actually proving that TikTok was in breach of any actual law.

But repeating the same claims gets those claims out into the media, and that's what people hear. So we see a dissonance between what the media says (and many people believe) and what's really happening.

Well... Though I agree with you in principle, the DMA does target specific gatekeeper companies and the criteria for these were set conveniently to ensure no EU company is regulated by it. So I can see their point a little

Isn't the question whether they were set because they were US companies, or because they are dominant gatekeepers on the Internet?

5/7 designated gatekeepers are US companies: https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/gatekeepers_en

I thought Booking Holdings Inc was also American.

There are zero European companies, including Spotify - the #1 music streaming marketplace in the world.

My mistake. While Booking.com is HQ'd in Amsterdam, Booking Holdings is indeed a US company (also responsible for Priceline, Kayak, and OpenTable.)

> There are zero European companies, including Spotify - the #1 music streaming marketplace in the world.

This still doesn't answer the actual question of whether the gatekeepers were selected because they are US companies, or because they are are Internet gatekeepers. I don't find it surprising that the US's legal and economic culture resulted in more conglomerate gatekeepers than other nations.

What exactly does Spotify gatekeep though?

They're a gatekeeper in the same way YouTube or TikTok is.

They control access of businesses, in this case music labels, to the final customer.

That's not really true. You can easily switch to Deezer, Apple Music, Tidal, Qobuz, YouTube Music, etc. You'll have access to just about the exact same library of music.

You can't just ignore YouTube, TikTok, Facebook Marketplace and still have access to the content they gatekeep.

The DMA doesn't care how easy for final customers to switch. If it did, Chrome wouldn't be designated a gatekeeper given how easy it is to switch to Firefox or brave or a dozen other browsers.

The DMA is about disintermediation of businesses from customers on large platforms with business and non-business users and durable user bases.

The problem with Chrome and the DMA has to do with the fact that Alphabet does these "don'ts":

- treat services and products offered by the gatekeeper itself more favourably in ranking than similar services or products offered by third parties on the gatekeeper's platform

- prevent users from un-installing any pre-installed software or app if they wish so (Chrome on Android can be disabled but not uninstalled)

- track end users outside of the gatekeepers' core platform service for the purpose of targeted advertising, without effective consent having been granted.

https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/about-dma_en#what-d...

None of that is used to determine who is a gatekeeper.

The assessment for whether Chrome qualified as a gatekeeper is less than 3 pages long. All they care about is whether they qualify as a platform and that they are over the threshold for active non-business users, active business users, revenue in the EU for enough time.

At no point did they concern themselves with potential anti-competitive practices in making the determination.

It's only after they're designated a gatekeeper that they're required to avoid things like self-preferencing or negotiating MFN terms with business. This conveniently allows the EU to pick and choose who the restrictive rules apply to on a company by company and product by product basis.

https://ec.europa.eu/competition/digital_markets_act/cases/2...

I think the document you really want to look at is this one, which is the actual regulation the DMA is operating under: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2022/1925/oj/eng

That regulation is very much concerned with anti-competitive practices. What we're seeing now is the application (or execution) of those regulations.

When I look at Regulation (EU) 2022/1925, it's pretty clear to me that Spotify does not have, for example, "very strong network effects, an ability to connect many business users with many end users through the multisidedness of these services, a significant degree of dependence of both business users and end users, lock-in effects, a lack of multi-homing for the same purpose by end users, vertical integration, and data driven-advantages."

What?

Spotify most certainly does have strong network effects (your friends are all on it, the party you go to with collaborative playlists uses it, etc), data driven-advantages (Spotify's personalized recommendations are built on vast historical playing data), lock-in effects (your playlist/history and all your friends' playlists are there), dependence of businesses users (Spotify is the go-to platform for music labels for promotion and only way to reach certain customers) and end users (because of network and lock-in effects).

I think we might have a fundamental disagreement that we'll have to agree to disagree on.

From a brief search, Facebook and Google are responsible for ~60-80% or more of digital advertising spend. This is because of their data-driven advantages that come from the multisidedness of their services, forcing a dependence of business users.

While Spotify does have social features, I don't really know anyone who joined Spotify because that's "where their friends were." The social features consist primarily of playlists (which can be viewed without an account) and a feed showing what friends are listening to, if you connect to Facebook - which many don't. Additionally, Spotify has very open APIs that make it easy to move a playlist to another service: https://developer.spotify.com/documentation/web-api/referenc...

Facebook requires an account to access Marketplace, even to view it (lock-in effects), and many communities and neighborhoods have made Facebook the sole source of online discussion / information sharing (strong network effects.) Eschewing Facebook means missing information you can't get any other way. And it's literally impossible to avoid Google online.

Simply having a product and customers ("your friends are all on it, the party you go to with collaborative playlists uses") or an audience ("Spotify's personalized recommendations are built on vast historical playing data") is not the same as being a gatekeeper.

> I don't really know anyone who joined Spotify because that's "where their friends were." The social features consist primarily of playlists (which can be viewed without an account)

Former Apple Music user here. I switched because of Spotify’s collaborative playlists. Technically, I could have used a sync solution to sync changes between platforms. In reality, it was just cheaper all around to switch to Spotify instead, and be on the same platform as my partner and friends. Being able to open Spotify links being sent to me without having to run it though some translation shortcut was wonderful.

Apple deleting all my playlists immediately after my subs lapsed was the icing on the cake to never return.

I'd argue this style of concentrating power under a single giant company is mostly American style.

EU companies tend to keep group entities separate instead of running for absolute synergies. For instance the AOL-Time-Warner-Direct-Dish kind of merger is pretty much unheard of.

thats only kinda right. The DMA does include booking.com as a gatekeeper, which is european. But most gatekeepers (except booking and tiktok) are US-based

Booking Holdings is American. They bought booking.com in 2005.

Booking.com was European, is not any more. It is now a subsidiary of Booking Holding (formerly Priceline), based in Connecticut.

That’s of course the reason these types of companies are American - Americans are rich and can buy out foreign companies which are successful.

There are plenty of EU companies that buy into new markets or opportunities, they just fall outside of these laws; Siemens is a good example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens

Agreed with your first point. Regarding TikTok though the argument was never (AFAIK) that they were actively breaking the law but rather that their structure and ownership posed a threat to US interests. That's pretty reasonable and largely mirrors China's stance against the US.

If anything the surprising thing is how lenient western governments tend to be towards foreign corporations. They seem to prioritize free trade above all else.

The US is lying about tiktok, the only reason is to mirror China's strategy towards American app. After watching the tit-for-tat video of Veritasum[1] I agree with America's strategy of banning Chinese apps until China allows American apps. That being said, I wish the US was more transparent about why they're doing this instead of lying.

I'm guessing the reason why they're lying is that they don't want to scare ALL Chinese companies.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mScpHTIi-kM

The reason they’re lying is because they’ve been lying for so long it just happens reflexively. It’s all they know anymore.

I find this so confusing. Rupert Murdoch and Elon Musk are foreigners who are both demonstrably influencing American politics through media they control. What makes Tiktok different?

The same thing that would make a platform with ties to Russia different. It falls under the influence of a sophisticated geopolitical adversary.

Tesla is headquartered and has most operations based in the US. Murdoch's ventures are similar AFAIK.

Given how much surveillance modern vehicles do I wouldn't be surprised if imports start being subjected to additional scrutiny at some point. But at least most vehicles can't be used to subtly and intentionally manipulate the owner's perception of the world so I guess the stakes are a bit lower.

TikTok probably didn’t make friends and pay bribes to the right people.

The idea that Murdoch and Musk are not really American and are instead foreigners is a disgusting anti-immigrant sentiment.

Rupert Murdoch has exclusively been a US citizen for 40 years.

But really, what makes Tiktok different is China.

Rupert Murdoch and Elon Musk are both American citizens. In fact, one of Murdoch's primary reasons for becoming an American citizen in 1985 was to comply with the Communications Act of 1934, which prevented him (or any non-citizen) from owning more than 25% of a broadcasting company.

Here's a piece of history from 1985 that talks about it: https://archive.ph/HlHrx

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US corporations are too used to breaking laws as they see fit and getting away with a slap on the wrist, so being asked to follow the rules feels like an attack to them.

This is a side note but I don't understand why you called out the media when your quote wasn't from them but reporting a person's opinion

I think you make many good points. Slight tangent: Why isn't EU more concerned about TikTok? While it is very difficult to prove, various studies have demonstrated that TikTok pushes more content favoring the Chinese Government (CCP).

In my anecdotal experience of one, American platforms are way faster in pushing far-right content on me even though it has to be clear to the algorithm that I don't want such content.

TikTok never does that.

> TikTok pushes more content favoring the Chinese Government (CCP).

Does that violate EU law? (Serious question, I really don't know)

no, and as far I know it doesn't violate any US law either. the thing against tiktok is not based on law, but based on suspicions.

Actually, the problem the US had with Tiktok that was it did not censor people from talking about Palestine

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/us-tiktok-ban-linked-isra...

The timeline doesn't align for that at all. National security concerns were raised before the Pentagon banned in in 2019, then Trump ordered it to divest in 2020.

No doubt that it became an argument by some more recently, but it was just another straw on the already broken camel's back.

it's not difficult to prove. In the wake of the tarrifs, everyone in the US got Chinese manufacturing videos pushed to their feed so customers can buy direct from factories and avoid huge markups by a middleman.

Or, you know, Chinese businesses acted like businesses and capitalized on the orange man's stupidity and naturally went viral.

The tinfoil hats come out pretty quickly when China is mentioned but Occam's razor still applies here.

> The same legislation applies to local companies.

It doesn't matter what applies, only what's enforced matters.

Laws being selectively enforced for an agenda is a tale as old as the existence of laws.

Another irony is that the biggest (business) beneficiaries of applied DMA would be other US-based digital services companies like Netflix or Epic.

There is no irony. The EU is targeting US companies. The US is targeting Chinese companies. The US is or soon will be targeting EU companies. China is targeting US companies. China will probably soon be targeting EU companies if they aren't already, which is probably already debatable. And this is not a complete list, it's not even a complete list of the highlights.

If they're doing it by legislation, well, the EU has been passing "legislation clearly designed for US companies to be in infringement of" for a while. Maybe you like that. Maybe it's a good thing; after all, the things they're passing laws about are basically just actions only US companies are capable of taking right now. Nevertheless it is clearly targeting. It's just targeting you like. The US has passed such legislation. China does it both with formal legislation and with de facto rules.

Free trade is a dead letter. Whether you like that or not is not very relevant to whether or not it is dead. It's dead. Maybe it'll swing back around in a few decades but right now even that is a distant prospect, we're not even done accelerating into the current merchantalist phase of the cycle, let alone decelerating, let alone heading back.

(Note "whataboutism" would be an inappropriate response to my point here; that's about "it's ok for us because they do it". My observation is not normative, merely descriptive... everyone is doing it, and they're doing it more rather than less right now.)

>The US is or soon will be targeting EU companies.

They already do, lookup how many European banks have been fined by the US and by how much then compare that to US banks.

Everybody plays these games.

That's called gaslighting, and it's a hostile act. Truth is the first casualty of war. If someone is trying to deceive you (or deceive others and ruin your reputation), they are actively exposing you to some kind of risk, usually for their own benefit, which is a hostile act. Recommend you act accordingly.

>So we see a dissonance between what the media says (and many people believe) and what's really happening.

This thing right here terrifies me. The entertainment-information media oligopoly has a tight grasp on public conversations. It feels like a hydra that can't be defeated.

It can be defeated by talking to people about things. If you are known to be an expert in topic X, and you are saying something different to what the media says about topic X (and which makes more sense), people (who know you and your reputation) are inclined to believe you over the media.

This only has a local impact, but global is made of local.

I do this as much as I can. Between chatrooms and local meets, I spend a significant portion of my time attempting to politely dispel misinformation.

It's exhausting, but it's worth it.

I want to organise with other people that do this, but I'm not sure how to do that. It feels like our efforts would be multiplied if we started to publish or otherwise spread information.

Ah, they said the T-word, presumably to invoke some political fire support from across the Atlantic. I wonder how that will go. Of course, this is not a tariff, for two reasons: firstly, it does not involve money (the UK's digital services tax does, but that's not this), and secondly, the same rules would apply to EU native competitors .. if there were any. It's what's knows as a "non tariff trade barrier". Of course those are all over the place, and many of them are there to protect consumer and public interests.

> The EU regulator also dropped Meta's Marketplace's designation as a DMA gatekeeper because the number of users fell below the threshold.

Now that's interesting. I think the threshold is 45 million? Falling EU userbase?

"the same rules would apply to EU maybe competitors... if there were any."

That can actually be an example of a tariff, though. Basically every country specializes in something, and imports things they're not good at making. For example: cheese, or luxury watches, or GPUs. If you have a special law that charges companies money only for the categories you import and you carve out exceptions for "small" (aka domestic) markets, a la the DMA, you have effectively created a tariff.

I wonder if eBay's free listings is taking marketshare back?

eBay's listings are no longer free. They are now extorting their pound of flesh via a so-called "Buyer Protection Fee" which forces buyers, rather than sellers, to pay extra when purchasing items from private sellers.

I'm a bit surprised usage was ever that high; that would imply that almost 10% of the population was using _Facebook Marketplace_!

I think I've looked at it maybe twice since it launched, to admire all the weird scams. Maybe it's gotten better since? It used to be sub-ebay levels of complete nonsense.

Remember that you're probably in a bubble. Marketplace was incredibly popular back in the days when I was at FB, and I'd have expected it to get more popular based on the people I see around me (kids stuff is all over it).

Maybe the gatekeeper thing is a reflection of less people in the EU using FB at all, rather than specifically Marketplace.

That bubble is the EU, which this law is about. I know a bunch of European countries have their own Ebay/Craigslist websites. Marketplace has never been even somewhat popular in my country.

Yeah fair. I guess I forget that Ireland is now the largest English speaking country in the EU, so I guess I'm in a bubble. I am still really surprised that Marketplace is no longer big enough to count as a gatekeeper.

Facebook Marketplace is extremely popular depending on the city you’re in.

It has taken the place of Craigslist for younger generations.

What surprises me is how much people on this site underestimate facebook.

Facebook literally is the internet for millions of people.

Facebook marketplace is far larger than craigslist and ebay combined, even if you take both of those at their respective peaks.

The open web might seem huge, but it's actually dwarfed in size by Facebook.

> What surprises me is how much people on this site underestimate facebook.

It’s the classic disconnect between engineering and product management: When engineers don’t want a product and therefore conclude that nobody wants the product.

When I’ve brought up Facebook active user stats here in the past I got flooded with responses suggested Facebook was lying or manipulating their user counts to pump up the stock.

Yeah, I often see claims online that Facebook is dead, Facebook is just Boomers posting pictures of their grandkids, etc. Maybe it's a regional thing, because where I live, everyone's on Facebook. Most small businesses, organizations, and communities here use it as their primary (or only) online presence for promoting themselves and staying in contact with their customers/members. Marketplace has completely replaced the old newspaper classified ads. That's unfortunate since the search in Marketplace sucks, but it's happened.

My family uses its messenger for organizing things because everyone has it, even if some of us rarely use it except for that. If I wanted to draw attention to something locally, whether it was promoting a service or running for office, I'd be a fool not to use Facebook.

Part of the disconnect is that these days, a lot of the Facebook use is concentrated in places you don't necessarily see from the outside.

Like, fifteen years ago, if you happened upon the Facebook page of a random person, you'd usually see a handful of vacation pictures, a meme or three, some updates from their latest Clash of Cookie Farm Kitchen Dash session, and whatnot.

These days, all that stuff - if it's even still being posted - is likely siloed away to Friends-only posts. That random person might still be there, might still be logging in every day, but you don't see the Messenger group chats and the Marketplace offers/haggles.

Likewise for small businesses - a lot of the "look at this thing we're selling now, come check it out" posts now go to Instagram. They might still be auto-logging in, still responding to PMs on Facebook, still clicking a few news posts here and there, but that's just not visible on the outside, and creates the perception of Facebook the Ghost Town.

*US city. I think people in my country would be able to name Craigslist (not in use) over fb marketplace.

> the same rules would apply to EU native competitors .. if there were any.

By this same logic, I guess we can say that the EU isn't trying to build a trade barrier favoring local competitors. So, while, as you say,

> It's what's knows as a "non tariff trade barrier".

...It's also not that, since the goal isn't prevent them from competing equally in the market, where they have no competition.

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> Apple faces a €500 million fine for breaching the regulation’s rules for app stores, while Meta drew a penalty of €200 million for its "pay or consent" advertising model,

> The procedural fines fall short of the two giant penalties issued by the EU executive under its antitrust laws last year: €1.8 billion to Apple for abusing its dominant position while distributing music streaming apps, and €797 million to Meta for pushing its classified ads service on social media users.

Really honest questions: are those fines actually paid, in practice ? Is there a way for a citizen to know ? (As in, do they appear in the public budget of the UE ?) Or are they somehow deducted from subsidies, added to taxes, etc... ?

I know who collects taxes in France ("Le Tresor Public"). I don't know of a EU version of a treasury. Is it collected by one of the member states (Ireland, I would guess ?)

> Fines imposed on undertakings found in breach of EU antitrust rules are paid into the general EU budget. This money is not earmarked for particular expenses, but Member States' contributions to the EU budget for the following year are reduced accordingly. The fines therefore help to finance the EU and reduce the burden for taxpayers.

This quote is re: anti-trust, but likely generalizes.

https://competition-policy.ec.europa.eu/index/fines_en#:~:te...

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Please, enlighten me how exactly is the EU not democratic.

I am very sure you have excellent arguments to support this claim.

It's a very often repeated criticism of the EU. While it's member states are democratic, the EU Parlament is kinda it's own thing.

I personally still consider it somewhat democratic, as we so have votes (even though they have horrendous voter participate) - but it's not a niche opinion.

We can't elect a single official to reverse and destroy decades of work without any parliamentary debate, I guess that makes EU non democratic as opposed to the brilliant US example.

This is a recurring Russian propaganda point, now amplified by the new US Administration. I am curious about the basis for this.

Could you explain further from your perspective how you came up with this conclusion?

Those pesky Russians and common sense of using #964B00 in your navbar then getting hit for 500 million is stupid.

It doesn't strike you odd that these claims pop up out of the blue when certain subjects are brought up?

The answer could simply be: "oh it's just ignorance at play, and some people just repeat what they heard and made them feel good because it helped them cope/made them resentful/.."

100% of the time I had these engagements, these folks didn't even know what the EU was. Donald Trump is a great example of this, he has no clue what the EU is, nor how it came to be lmao

> "pay or consent" advertising model,

Wait, so the EU has made it illegal to sell a paid service while also offering an alternative where the user pays via seeing ads?

It's not the ads you are consenting to, its the personal data collection and targeting.

You could have non-personalized, or contextual ads. But those are much less effective.

>You could have non-personalized, or contextual ads. But those are much less effective.

This is always a bit frustrating to me, in that, if someone doesn't like personal data collection, they likely have enough blocked that the attempts at targeted advertisements are likely to be very ineffective. And even in spaces where there is little personal data available, online advertising still seems to desperately cling to targeting rather than context.

I remember being struck by the contrast between the printed Times Literary Supplement, with advertisements for new book releases, conferences, cultural events, and so on, which all seem quite relevant to the audience, are often enjoyable and informative, and have directly motivated me to buy things, and the automated advertisements that were added to their podcast, for things like... a football-themed advertisement for a car dealership vaguely located near some rough geolocation of my IP address.

No, the EU has made it illegal to extort payment before allowing people to opt-out of data collection or profiling.

Extortion is a stretch. Nobody is being forced to use these services.

Try not using Wechat in China. Facebook's Whatsapp is going in that direction in the Netherlands and probably other European countries: I don't yet need it for daily life, but a lot of services are moving to supporting WhatsApp and turning off things like regular phone support, website chat, etc. The only things where it was a requirement so far, were things I didn't yet care about (like sending in voice messages to be used in a podcast, or being part of the neighborhood gossip and tool-sharing community chat) but I bet it won't stay that way forever and sooner or later a company will discontinue email support in favor of "just message us on Whatsapp". Between going back to the 80s and writing/printing letters and sending them in the mail, and installing WhatsApp, any reasonable person will begrudgingly click that agree button no matter if they really agree. I'd say they were extorted at that point and it is not voluntarily/freely given consent, even if they technically have made that choice themselves

Tell that to the embedded Facebook trackers ubiquitous throughout the web

> embedded Facebook trackers

And most social trackers and google analytics, and adsense, and most captcha alternatives or stripe anti fraud scripts.

People have sold their audience to FAANG for 2 decades now.

And let's not think too much about the Android and iOS ecosystems (phone, TV, "assistants" etc.).

Except for newspapers

right, that seems to be the model for German newspapers online, haven't seen it other places.

It seems to have become common at least in several European countries

No. They just made it illegal for Meta specifically to do it, and they’re reserving judgment for anyone else on their hit list covered by the DMA. The DMA is not neutral laws on neutral principles despite the PR and the extra layers of indirection, it targets American and Chinese companies specifically because that’s what it was designed to do.

Not Meta specifically, although Meta as a monopoly on being apple to infrige this rule. (A long time ago, in a capitalism far, far way, America was against monopolies and cartels. Those days will come back.)

> The DMA is not neutral laws on neutral principles

What do you mean "neutral law on neutral principles" ? Does that exist ?

I can agree on some version of "not a neutral law" in that it is "objectively" targeted: the law makes a difference between smaller actors and bigger ones ("gatekeepers") (and it's not clear to me if the criterias (size, audience, revenues, etc...) are set in store, or arbitrary [1]).

It happens that they're all from the US except TikTok's ByteDance and Booking.com. It was probably _designed_ for that.

But I suspect the case here "Meta is offering you to pay, so that they don't have to respect your rights to privacy". I suspect it would be illegal for even the smaller data collectors. But IANAL.

However, the "neutral principles" don't make sense. All laws are principled, except the laws of physics.

In this case, yes, the "principle" is that personal data is something to be treated with care. As often, you can state that something is a "principle" when someone can have the opposite version. So the "opposite" version of this is that personal data is a commodity that can be sold at will.

None of those version is neutrally "true" or "false".

However, we just happen, in the EU, to have pretty strong memory of people doing bad things with extensive databases, so we have different views on the matter.

The shame is that it never was directly settled in a democratic debate - it's entirely the work of the legislative bodies of the EU, which, though elected and representative, are not exactly well know of famous. Maybe the debate is too technical to be popular.

[1] https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/qanda_...

[2] https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/gatekeepers_en#book...

> Not Meta specifically, although Meta as a monopoly on being apple to infrige this rule. (A long time ago, in a capitalism far, far way, America was against monopolies and cartels. Those days will come back.)

I’ve been asking for years here and nobody has made a solid argument to me how Facebook has a monopoly in anything or how a social networking monopoly even could exist. It’s a competitive market out there. Some of their competitors are on the DMA’s hit list too.

> What do you mean "neutral law on neutral principles" ? Does that exist ?

Sure it does. A law against murder is a law applied to everyone. That’s a neutral law, and it’s not targeted, and it’s a fairly neutral principle to state that “murder is intolerable in our society”.

> However, we just happen, in the EU, to have pretty strong memory of people doing bad things with extensive databases, so we have different views on the matter.

The bad people doing bad things with extensive databases were European governments.

Antitrust doesn't mean monopoly, but monopoly is a part of antitrust. Monopoly also doesn't mean you're the only one, but you're the one capable of fixing prices, or doing something else anti competitive.

It's a complex thing in practice, don't take the linguistic definition of the word itself as the sole interpretation of the law.

Please note not only what I wrote but what I was directly responding to when I wrote it.

> It's a complex thing in practice, don't take the linguistic definition of the word itself as the sole interpretation of the law.

I am aware; however I am still waiting for the solid argument that Facebook is a monopoly to be made in either an EU legal context (not “gatekeeper”, not “very large online platform”, monopoly) or an American legal context.

> I’ve been asking for years here and nobody has made a solid argument to me how Facebook has a monopoly in anything or how a social networking monopoly even could exist. It’s a competitive market out there. Some of their competitors are on the DMA’s hit list too.

This seems pretty convincing to me, given that Meta owns Facebook, Instagram and Whatsapp: [1]

> Facebook leads the pack with 3.04 billion users, maintaining its position as the most extensive social networking site globally. > YouTube follows with 2.5 billion users, reinforcing its status as the premier platform for video sharing and consumption. > WhatsApp and Instagram are tied in the third position, each with 2 billion users. WhatsApp is renowned for its messaging services, while Instagram is a favorite for photo and video sharing. > TikTok, with 1.5 billion users, rounds out the top five, showcasing its rapid rise as a leading platform for short-form video content.

In terms of social media, the only "competitor" at the same scale as facebook is tiktok and snap.

We might leave in the bubble that uses twitter, bluesky, reddit, etc... but their small relative to the blue site, for better or for worse.

Break up Meta into differents, apps, and suddenly the monopoly becomes much less obvious.

> and it’s a fairly neutral principle to state that “murder is intolerable in our society”.

Do you mean it's "neutral" because there is no "arbitrage" in deciding if someone is a murderer ?

Or that the principle behind it is universal ?

In this case, is it still "neutral" once your start talking about, say, self defense ? death penalty ? assisted suicide ? war times ? (or, if you're going to stretch it a lot, abortion ?) I'm not bringing it to say there is an equivalence, I'm saying you _will_ have people making the equivalence, and different people will disagree. It's called principles - no law say they have to be universal, and they're usually not.

[1] https://prioridata.com/data/social-media-usage/#Social_Media...

> This seems pretty convincing to me, given that Meta owns Facebook, Instagram and Whatsapp: [1]

>> Facebook leads the pack with 3.04 billion users, maintaining its position as the most extensive social networking site globally. > YouTube follows with 2.5 billion users, reinforcing its status as the premier platform for video sharing and consumption. > WhatsApp and Instagram are tied in the third position, each with 2 billion users. WhatsApp is renowned for its messaging services, while Instagram is a favorite for photo and video sharing. > TikTok, with 1.5 billion users, rounds out the top five, showcasing its rapid rise as a leading platform for short-form video content.

This tells only part of the story, believe it or not. You know the old phrase, lies, damned lies, and statistics? This is why statistics is on the list: statistics are a very easy way to mislead and even straight up lie to people.

So let’s start with your conception of the DMA: the DMA is not an anti-monopoly law. It is addendum to the EU’s competition policy, which defines a new entity type called a gatekeeper. Similarly, with the DSA (“Digital Services Act”) they defined another entity type: very large online platforms or VLOPs.

The reason why they were put in the position in the first place of writing new laws defining new entity types is because no matter how they tried to slice it, not even the EU could justifiably punish their targets, large mostly American tech giants, under anti-monopoly law, not even if they were to really stretch it by legally redefining what a monopoly even is.

Do you want to know what a monopoly looks like? It looks like AT&T in the 90s with long distance phone calls, where the only way to talk to someone across a long distance and hear their voice was to go through AT&T’s telephone lines that had long ago been laid coast-to-coast across the USA. It looks like railroads colluding because they’re all laying tracks across Kansas and they don’t want to do that anymore. That’s a monopoly.

Apple, Meta, et al. have not been charged as monopolies under the DMA or DSA. They have been defined, literally put on a list by the EC under a law it had written itself with specific targets in mind, as Gatekeepers and/or VLOPs and simply being on that list is enough to give the EC extra special authority over them, again, under the law it has written with them in mind.

So let’s go back to social networks and discuss whether Facebook is a monopoly. I’m going to assert no and here is why: Facebook does not control the free flow of information across society, provide a chokehold for communication, is not essential for communication, and is not essential in its form or function. The Blue App itself is actually a very old type of social network grounded in the early to mid-aughts with sites like MySpace and 1up.com as its peers. Some of the kids today that never grew up with that, but really only heard about it have found their home in this retro social network called SpaceHey, but you don’t really see more Facebook’s because nobody really wants that. There’s already Facebook.

What about Facebook’s suite? The Blue App, Instagram, and WhatsApp. Again, all very large social networks in their own right. There’s also Threads tied into Instagram. They only seem dominant if you ignore an incredibly important piece of information: people don’t use just one social network. They use several, and for different purposes and niches. Twitter/X, Reddit, WeChat, LINE, KakaoTalk, Blue Sky, WhatsApp, VSCO, Instagram, Snapchat, Discord, Mixi, iMessage, Badoo, Mastodon, TikTok & Douyin, Whisper, Yik Yak, VK, Xiaohongshu, Letterboxd, Truth Social and Bumble are all playing in the same space. I would even throw Hacker News in the mix. What differentiates them are things like niche, geography, audience or interest focus, and medium but there are only so many hours in the day and Facebook is competing against all of that, and Netflix and YouTube, and the time you spend IRL just chatting with your friends at the pub or whatever.

People are on Facebook at this point largely because they want to be, and the fact that they have 3 billion users or whatever is fucking irrelevant to a competition authority because there’s no country or bloc on Earth with that population. The United States Department of Justice is chiefly concerned with competition law inside its own borders, and the same for the relevant EU authorities, and the same for each other country on Earth.

> In this case, is it still "neutral" once your start talking about, say, self defense ? death penalty ? assisted suicide ? war times

Murder has a definition, and it’s not just a synonym for the killing of someone. It’s the unlawful and intentional act of killing someone without justification nor a valid excuse. Different legal systems may vary in the specifics, but most do tend to distinguish murder from other forms of killing. Either way, the applicability of the charge of murder, or the charge of being a monopoly to bring this discussion back a bit from the morbid, is founded in the rule of law.

> It happens that they're all from the US except TikTok's ByteDance and Booking.com. It was probably _designed_ for that.

Booking.com is owned by an American company.

> In the EU, to have pretty strong memory of people doing bad things with extensive databases

Lack of databases didn't stop "people" from doing bad things. They built the databases, rather quickly, while they were doing bad things.

I find it bizarre that the response to trying to prevent the rise of another fascist European government was to avoid collecting data as if a populist fourth Reich wouldn't ignore the law and use neighbors to rat out neighbors again. Not that I believe for a second any European country doesn't keep far more extensive records on citizens than the Nazis did when they came to power.

Under the GDPR, it’s illegal to treat PII like currency. You can’t gate a service behind PII consent.

Whack. Let consumers and sellers decide what to do with their own data

This is a totally foreign idea to the EU. Offensive and crass, even.

There's something I've learnt from some time in the EU. There is not an innovative, risk-taking, freedom-loving bone in the EU culture -- they exported all those folks to the US. Their homegrown risk takers and innovators inevitably leave because of their suffocating culture around innovation, entrepreneurship, and progress. This is one of the reasons for the staggering amount of brain drain in the EU.

Most ironically, they sneer on our concept of entrepreneurship/innovation while they lag development by decades and having total and complete dependence on our technology. It is this weird moral high-horse position that amounts to a tactical foot-gun.

or maybe they just don't think automated mass surveillance is a worthwhile innovation.

Like the atom bomb, you know - you shouldn't get to drop one in the middle of the city just because you invented it. Not even if it's very profitable.

> somehow deducted from subsidies

Do you think the EU subsidizes Meta/Apple.

Not necessarily Meta, but it's very much possible that a large company is the recipient of both EU subsidies and EU fines :)

[flagged]

No. The EU subsidizes electric vehicles. Not the same thing.

It pretty much was the same thing for years.

This is a result of the severe neglect to enforce anti trust in the US. Now other countries need to kick in with diplomatic adverse effects... sigh.

> "This isn't just about a fine; the Commission forcing us to change our business model effectively imposes a multi-billion-dollar tariff on Meta while requiring us to offer an inferior service."

Meta complaining about getting tariff'd is objectively hilarious.

> the Commission forcing us to change our business model

This is total, utter, complete 100% grade A organic nonsense.

I worked at FB (but the same is true of basically all action driven advertising systems). Only a tiny proportion of users ever click, but they are incredibly lucrative for online advertising platforms.

The whole subscription was a really transparent attempt to get people to accept the tracking and it's honestly profoundly depressing that this is what they're reduced to.

Ads work even if nobody clicks.

At least, old school ads. Sensible ads. Like Coca-Cola. I have no idea how these ridiculous online gaming things stay in business but I'm sure it's much stupider.

Did you buy coca cola because santa clause was drinking it or did you buy it because it was at eye level by the register in every store in America?

No, like the rest of these power games it should be worrying. It's not about whether it's actually a tariff or not - it's not about objective truth. It's about getting the orange guy to do things that are beneficial for Mr Sugarhill's money pile. It might or might not work in this particular instance, but it should be very concerning that this sort of thing is the way to get money now.

Mr Sugarhill's ploy is presumably to get Mr Mango enraged about the tariffs so he tariffs them back 200%, and they back down to avoid the 200% tariffs.

Press release: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_25_...

Huh, so Facebook Marketplace is no longer designated as a Gatekeeper because it has not enough business users.

--

Other related PR: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_25_...

This rules that the "Core Technology Fee" is de facto illegal.

I don't understand meta's statement that this handicaps american businesses while allows European and Chinese companies to operate under different standards.

It's not completely unwarranted. According to the article, Facebook was fined for their model of asking for pay or accept tracking. Which is exactly what almost all publishers do, e.g. all big German newspapers. It's absolutely clear that this is against the law - they could show ads, but can't invade the users privacy for that, so no tracking ads - but they do it anyway and got away with it in various decisions. And now Facebook gets a huge fine for the same behaviour.

Which is good in a way, maybe it will lead to a behaviour correction also for the smaller publishers. But it's of course not an equal treatment.

Apple on the other hand completely deserves its fine, without a question. They got clear rules and did everything to circumvent them. The Apple's Core Technology Fee was obviously illegal. Don't know why they expected to get away with that, there wasn't even a minimal chance of that working. Idiots.

Big German newspapers do not need to comply under DMA.

The EU focusses, rightfully, on EU macro dynamics with these laws, not how smaller outlets work.

This is very much reasonable. When a platform is big, it has bigger impact, but also bigger budgets to hire legal help and bigger budgets to stay compliant.

This is well established in accounting where there exists different rules depending on size (in many jurisdictions)

What’s another example of different rules depending on size? “Content Moderation” I think? Anything outside the DMA? I think small companies get some exceptions for documentation requirements?

It is a derivative of what is called the "Risk Based Approach" in compliance, and is widely adopted.

As for companies and accounting you can look into the directive 2013/34/EU that established micro, small, and medium sized companies based on their size. These types of companies have different reporting requirements.

in my part of Europe there are tons: companies over a certain size might have different rules for layoffs, have to have union representatives, must pay for safety courses for the employees, must employ a certain percentage of people with disabilities...

In the US, some laws specifically exclude small companies. For example, the Equal Employment Opportunity Act of 1972 requires 15 employees, and the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 requires 4 employees.

You could try to find some analogies but you probably won't succeed since this is clearly just targeting American big Tech

G-SIB banks for example

In practice it means that only American companies end up paying large fees to the EU.

It also means that not all US companies have to comply, and that the ones that do are the most competitive companies in the market, making their claim that they have trouble competing moot.

There are no fees.

I agree, except the DMA specifically only applies to companies over a specific size. I think if the German newspapers were at FB/Apple scale, in terms of number of users, then the DMA would apply (i.e. they would be designated gatekeepers or similar) and they could also be fined. Although I think pay for no ads is also a violation of GDPR maybe?

Pay for no tracking / Personal Information trade is illegal. Pay for no advertising is legal. That's what Youtube is doing.

It's meta's "pay or allow us to sell your personal informations that is the issue, not advertising by itself.

Exactly. While DMA does not apply, GDPR does. But it gets ignored and weakened by decision against the letter and the spirit of the law - which does not surprise if you realize how much power those legacy publishers hold. Not so FB, not here at least.

So it's not exactly the same regulation but pretty much the same situation. I'd also be pissed.

GDPR does not purport to outlaw targeted advertising. It just purports to require that the target consent.

In pretty much every other area of law in most of the world (including Europe) consent can be bought--the party requesting consent gives the consenter something in exchange for consent, and will not give that thing unless consent is given.

But under the rulings from some regulators that doesn't work for GDPR. Consent is apparently only considered to be freely given if withholding it would not result in any detriment such as not getting the same level of service or having to pay money for service.

If regulators want to outlaw targeted advertising it would be a lot better if they just did that, instead of making consent in GDPR work differently from how it has worked for pretty much everything else pretty much everywhere for centuries.

That's not entirely fair. The concept of duress exists and is always at odds with consent in a transactional setting. The issue is where to draw the boundary between "you freely chose to do business" and "you were coerced into accepting unfavorable terms".

I'm inclined to think that "pay or be tracked" is usually the former. The issue was never that I shouldn't have to pay but rather that I wasn't given the choice in the first place.

That would probably work if it wasn't already such an established business model. The grocery store hires a bouncer to not let me in unless he can take a picture of my ID? Fine... I'll go across the street.

But since it already is established that the Internet works this way, all grocery stores in town are already doing this. I might not want to but I still have to. Moreover, it's been firmly impressed upon everyone that they have to show ID to enter a grocery store, so if I created a new one that didn't, people would just continue going to their closest one anyway. To improve this situation, something more drastic than free competition is needed (if that could work, it already would have).

In this analogy the grocery stores pretty much all started offering the option to pay a cover charge and not have your ID checked. They believed this complied with the new laws but the regulator is making noises that this isn't good enough - that they have to make ID checks optional even for customers that won't pay.

So the question is, does charging you to not have your ID checked count as coercion or is it a voluntary choice? Or alternatively, does it have a detrimental effect on society at large? Is it somehow unfair to the individual? I'd tend to think that the answer to those questions would depend a lot on motivations - the funding model, the size of the fee, and how much money they make if they track you.

In the case of a newspaper they have to make money somehow. If readers aren't willing to pay I don't immediately see how offering a free tier that has advertisements with tracking is detrimental to society or unfair to the individual.

If regulators want to outlaw targeted advertising it would be a lot better if they just did that

Exactly. As it is now they're practically encouraging publishers to use dark patterns to trick users into "agreeing" to tracking.

GDPR Art. 7 section 4:

> When assessing whether consent is freely given, utmost account shall be taken of whether, inter alia, the performance of a contract, including the provision of a service, is conditional on consent to the processing of personal data that is not necessary for the performance of that contract.

Don't blame the regulators, it's pretty clear that "paying" with consent is a no-go from the text itself.

The measures apply by size, not by country of origin. It happens that the companies over the threshold are American. So their statement is basically untrue, but that's politics these days.

There are a couple of companies in the list[1] (of seven) that aren’t US-based. ByteDance are Chinese and Booking are EU (NL).

[1] https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/gatekeepers_en

Probably also important to note, is that ByteDance and TikTok are also currently being investigated by the European Commission. Although for different reasons under the Digital Services Act - so it's not like they are targeting US companies specifically with the law.

Also the commission is known to fine European entities all the time for various reasons, one of the recent ones I can think of is Pierre Cardin and it's partners for restricting cross border European sales.

Booking Holdings which Wikipedia has as the parent of booking.com seems to be US owned.

Yes. Booking Holdings Inc. is incorporated in Delaware, listed on the Nasdaq with principal executive offices in Connecticut. See SEC filing: https://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/CIK-0001075531/87dc4e5...

Had no idea booking.com was american. I always assumed it was euro-based.

Booking.com was founded in the Netherlands and is still headquartered there, but was bought by a US company (Priceline) well over a decade ago.

That makes sense. It just didn't have the energy of an American company and I say that as one. I love booking.com

Spotify conveniently falls outside of the scope of this law when any artist would tell you it should absolutely be covered.

The DMA is gerrymandered to exclude domestic businesses. Whenever the EU faces budget shortfalls, they know they can just make up some bullshit law and fine US tech.

> EU are basically enforcing market capitalism by disallowing monopolistic practices.

Users are free to just not buy iOS devices. Users are free to just not use Meta services.

There is no monopoly here. This is all much ado about nothing.

No real-world user is meaningfully harmed by the current state of Apple App Store/Meta Ads, but plenty will be harmed once spyware/piracy sideloading becomes common. Many small businesses will collapse due to ineffective advertisement (large businesses will love it though - it becomes a winner-take-all market).

> The DMA is gerrymandered to exclude domestic businesses.

Except Booking (~EU, based in NL~*) falls under the DMA, and ByteDance (China? I think) does as well. All the same restrictions fall on them too.

> Users are free to just not use Meta services.

True in theory, not so much in practice. I work for a company that deals directly with WhatsApp in NL, and I guarantee you for businesses it's a death knell to not have a WA Business presence. Even the local gemeente (aka city council) and other gov't establishments are on WhatsApp too. Recently more people are moving onto Signal and Telegram, but that remains a minority.

Don't even get me started on Asia, especially India/Indonesia, where even despite the existence of Line and similar apps everything is still* almost exclusively on WA. A bit different in East Asia where Line and other apps are more predominant (hardly relevant for the EU though).

Spotify doesn't fall under the DMA because it's not gatekeeping anything and it does have plenty of competition, many of which pay artists better and have basically equal selections. YT Music, Apple Music, Deezer, Tidal, Bandcamp and I'm sure dozens and dozens of others all exist and are used.

> ... but plenty will be harmed once spyware/piracy sideloading becomes common

Interesting how this evil sideloading boogeyman hasn't happened on Android.

> ... Many small businesses will collapse due to ineffective advertisement

The same small businesses that are forced into paying 30% to Apple/Google for simply existing on their app store?

> (large businesses will love it though - it becomes a winner-take-all market).

So, the gatekeepers as listed under the DMA? Y'know, the giants that literally hold all the keys and can dictate how the entire market should work based on their rules? The very same ones that have opaque ad-bidding systems that they control inside-and-out and can do anything they want to with?

[**] Seems I'm wrong there (See andsoitis' reply to my comment), but didn't want to edit out my original comment.

Regardless, calling it gerrymandering of local businesses is simply incorrect, and I can speak for at least myself that if we even had any tech companies that big (and I hope we never do), we'd expect them be subject to the exact same rules and laws.

> Booking (EU, based in NL)

Booking Holdings Inc. is incorporated in Delaware, listed on the Nasdaq with principal executive offices in Connecticut. See SEC filing: https://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/CIK-0001075531/87dc4e5...

Thanks, edited my comment to reflect I was wrong there.

Spotify feels like a slightly marginal case, and it wouldn't be surprising to see it added to the list. It clearly wasn't big enough a few years back when all this was being defined, but it's gotten quite a lot bigger since.

I'm curious, what is your preferred financial regime? EU are basically enforcing market capitalism by disallowing monopolistic practices. Do you find that wrong in general?

Perhaps you prefer an industro-fascist regime where businesses are not bound by any tailored laws? Pretty sure there would already be alternative iOS app stores under such a regime - government controls (IPR system, computer security laws) seem necessary to enable these sorts of tech monopolies.

> Whenever the EU faces budget shortfalls, they know they can just make up some bullshit law and fine US tech.

If that would be the case, the EU could be drowning in money by being more aggressive with GDPR enforcement and follow-through.

500 million sounds like a lot but that is just a drop in the ocean for first world nation states. The Netherlands has a yearly budget of 300 billion for example.

> Whenever the EU faces budget shortfalls, they know they can just make up some bullshit law and fine US tech.

The EU's budget is massive, no shortfall is covered by these fines since to collect them it takes another massive legal battle, that's just bullshit being regurgitated on the internet (especially on this forum). If that was the case the EU would be issuing GDPR fines all over the place to cover shortfalls, it doesn't happen in reality.

> Spotify conveniently falls outside of the scope of this law when any artist would tell you it should absolutely be covered.

Spotify does not behave like the most similar category covered by the DMA: video sharing like YouTube. Spotify does not hold exclusive access to the content and the audience, YouTube Music, Apple Music, and other players have almost the same catalogue as Spotify has so users are free to move between those services without penalty. Now try moving from YouTube to a competitor, a completely different beast.

The DMA exists to counter an imbalance in the power these massive tech companies have in detriment to competition, it's quite a simple prerogative, Spotify doesn't hold at all the same power as YouTube has, or Google Search, or any other platform under the DMA.

  I met a member of an EU pact
  Who said: two vast and fruitful suits of law
  Prevail in the courts. Near them, in their acts,
  Half won, a shattered victory lies, whose maw
  And wrinkled smile, a sneer of bitter spite,
  Tell that its makers well those voters fed
  Which yet survive, in those politic corps,
  The lips that lied, the hearts that bled
  And on the cover these words, in bold, underlined
  “My name is Brussels, Home of Kings:
  Look on my rules, ye Mighty, and be fined!”
  No thing beside remains. Around the court
  Of that great parliament, in open plans, Aerons reclined
  The ever mighty FAANGs endure.

A good start, but far from enough regarding the societal damage (anti-competitive, anti-user, psychological harm especially of minors, proliferation of radicalisation) they did.

*insert Mike Myers One Million Dollars meme

they made more than the fine, so it's just reduced profit a little. mere higher cost of business and continue as usual.

The DMA fines are not supposed to be punitive damages, they're a tool to correct behavior, like the GDPR.

If Apple & co don't comply there are higher amounts that can be imposed, but the idea is that the companies will comply before that.

The EU made a serious point that these are the first time they are issuing those fines as as such have capped them as a signal to show that they are serious but also that they aren’t taking the maximalist approach some in the US are accusing them of.

They can legally go for 10% of global revenue if I’m not mistaken as the top level of fines and both Apple and Meta would be wise to not find themselves as repeat offenders as a result.

I hope this will make Apple finally comply with EU law and allow app side loading on iOS. Real side loading, not the joke they implemented since iOS 17.

Isn't it just in the name of competition, i.e. alternative app stores? Or is sideloading an explicit goal of the EU's efforts?

I would not hold my breath. They are adept at malicious compliance. Cook will do a cost/benefit assessment and will come up with another workaround.

> They are adept at malicious compliance.

They just got fined 500 millions for failure to comply so I'm not sure adept is the adjective I would use.

How much additional profit have they made based on their malicious compliance? I bet it dwarfs this fine.

That is not so clear. Appstore revenue is ~ $100 billion/y, but Apple makes less than 30% from that.

So the question is: Would more convincing compliance have cost Apple more than single digit percentage decreases in Appstore sales? Comparing the F-Droid vs Playstore situation, this seems unlikely to me.

Apple’s take is 30%, but they have expenses that have to be covered by that. The profit if any would be much less than $30bn.

If Apple is so bad at this that they have to charge 30%, they should have failed in the free market to a competitor that can do the same or better for 3%. However, Apple has prevented that, not by being better or cheaper, but by implementing DRM that locks users out from having a choice (and the market as a whole ended up being a duopoly with cartel-like pricing).

Whether Apple can be cheaper isn't really the point (they should be, digital services are a very high margin business). It's that they're anti-competitive to the point that the market for paid apps and in-app payments became inefficient (in a financial sense).

> The profit if any would be much less than $30bn.

It doesn't cost that much to maintain and run the appstore, it is almost all profits.

You are trying to tell me that credit card processing fees are negligible, software engineers work for free, advertising doesn’t require overhead, etc…

I guess that kind of thinking that everything is basically free is why alot of startups just fail so easily.

None of them are close to 30 billion!!!

Whether it's adept or not depends on what would have happened if they actually complied.

Sure, a half a billion fine sounds like a lot, but if you don't have another number to compare against, you can't tell if it was clever or not.

500 million is like half a days revenue.

The actual fines for this moving forward are up to 10% of a companies global revenue. The EU made a big point to say that this is the first time they are issuing those fines and as a result they are smaller than they otherwise would be especially in the case of repeat offenders.

Perhaps "compliance" is the wrong term, but surely such a tiny fine will do little to convince them to comply.

They have a couple of months (2? 6?) to comply, otherwise they get additional fines.

The EU should instead set targets.

Ie. "More than half of users have installed at least one app from a non-apple affiliated store by Jan 2026 or you shall pay a fine of $10 per month per iPhone in use in the EU".

That’s a terrible idea. How would they have any control over that. I think you are way overestimating the amount of iOS users that want to use software from outside the App Store.

If 3rd party stores didn't charge the Apple tax, I think you'd find plenty of apps moving to other stores, and within a matter of weeks more than half of users would have used a 3rd party store.

That’s my worst nightmare. On my iPhone I want the equivalent of Spotify, not Netflix, Hulu, Disney+, Max, etc.

I want the equivalent of a shops in the real world. One shop doesn't carry everything. Even Spotify doesn't carry everything. For one, Apple doesn't allow adult content apps. Steam does. I'm sure there's a market for adult games on iPhone as Steam's success there would seem to suggest. I don't think Apple should be required to sell adult games but I also don't think they should get to dictate that people can't use their phones for adult games. So, more stores would great.

Why can’t people just buy Android phones that allow for this? They should change, not Apple and their users that like the walled garden.

It's a bit of a false comparison, since you wouldn't have to pay monthly subscriptions to others stores as you have to for streaming services.

Yeah but I would have to deal with multiple app stores of varying security, quality control, resource usage, and other annoyances. No thanks.

That really depends on the store. If Value made a Steam store, or Nintendo made a Nintendo store with Nintendo exclusives I'd expect millions of installs.

Maybe but that is also not within Apple's control.

Agreed, the only realistic way they could hit such a target is to shut down their own app store...

[dead]

Generally, as a society, we hold that a contract cannot be modified without both parties’ agreement. When you bought that phone, it was with the completely clear, overt, and in no way uncertain understanding that it does specifically X Y Z, and does not do A B C. Now, without additional payment to the counterparty, you’re demanding your phone do A B C. What am I missing? According to accepted understandings of contracts, how are you possibly in the right? How are you possibly in a position to demand government use force to modify a contract you accepted before to somehow benefit you more at a cost to your counterparty?

You are of the opinion that it is reasonable for a company to expect you to read, understand and fully agree with a contract that consists of countless pages of opaque legalese and that you have no say in whatsoever, just in order to use a service that's arguably a necessity to participate in public life?

The EU does not seem to share that opinion, and puts some restrictions on these types of 'contracts'. Are you really concerned that this is somehow unfair towards these companies? Companies that retain whole teams of lawyers to create a contract that hardly any of its billion counter parties (individual consumers) can fully comprehend, let alone push back on?

What service? You are free to use cellular service without your iPhone. There are other phones available. Apple is not gating your access to cellular

My rant was about the rationale for government restricting ToS contracts in general. Apple is indeed not as unavoidable for participating in public life as some others. The only alternative being 'agreeing to' the Google contract of course.

We're not talking about "other phones." We are talking about iPhones. The market is "iPhone users" not just "phone users".

The parent post said “service that's arguably a necessity to participate in public life”. I’m not sure what universe you live in, but in mine everyday life is entirely possible without iPhones.

Ah, didn't catch that line.

Parts of the contract can be illegal, this is completely within the power of the EU to enforce a crackdown on illegal contracts.

I'm not sure what society you are referring to but contracts have to adhere to laws in the EU.

This is also about software that is being updated. So the transaction is not completed yet. Apple could probably go the route of not providing the update to phones that were sold before the law was voted on/in place. I would guess that would lead to other legal battles.

And is it reasonable that the laws are created after the contract was already agreed to and still apply to it? At least here in the United States, laws are not allowed to make things illegal that happened before the laws were written.

Laws can definitively be retroactive or affect existing contracts. Imagine a world where governments have no power to stop anti-social behavior if it was ever baked into private contracts ?

Also the DMA didn't fall from the sky one day and enforced the next. Every business impacted had years to do something about it, and they preferred to play chicken race instead.

There's a range of anti-competitive behavior which can subvert that ideal, and as such there's regulation aimed to prevent it. Apple used to forbid apps from telling users about Apple's 30% cut or cheaper places to buy the app, for instance, hindering users from making an informed choice.

Many of the policies in question are intentionally not publicized to end-users, often requiring first paying to be part of the developer program before you can even see what you need to agree to to publish an app.

  > intentionally not publicized to end-users

   > requiring first paying to be part of the developer program

> Apple allows no-questions-asked full-refund returns for two weeks.

That's the bare legal minimum in the EU. Many anti-competitive practices are not things consumers find out about within some short fixed period of time, if at all, and others are not solved by a refund even when the customer is aware of the issue.

> They are all available right here, online, without any purchase requirement: https://developer.apple.com/support/terms/

True that it does now all (including schedules 2/3 and the guidelines) appear to be publicly available. Looks as if this was done on June 7th 2021, shortly after the EU Commission had sent the Statement of Objections on April 30th 2021.

Genuine question for debate: iPhone app store is a private club to which businesses can choose to belong, if they want to sell their product to certain customers. Membership in the club comes with the condition that you not talk about alternative ways to buy the same product, while selling via the club. Membership in the club is not a monopoly; there are many other channels through which to sell a company's products.

Why is is against the law?

The EU's regulatory stance on antitrust does not require a monopoly, it requires a dominant position in a market meeting use of certain criteria marked as abuse. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL... From there when they tell a company they are breaching criteria for abuse and the company doesn't change the EU issues according fines.

As for "why" this is against the law, I assume that more to mean "why did the EU make this against the law" (since the other answer is simply "because the EU law was written as so". The arguments are largely the same as for why monopolies should not be allowed to operate: to ensure free market competition by preventing a few dominating companies from unduly pressuring the market. There are, of course, some who feel the freest market is one with no governmental regulations at all but they are not the majority (at least in the EU).

Because EU law says they have let others into their club.

Apple has always allowed anyone into their club. You have to pay dues and follow some strict (but non-discriminatory) rules, but the result was a place which people liked going to.

Analogies aside, the REAL question is whether Apple is entitled to charge money for access to their developer APIs. Or whether Apple is entitled to place software license terms upon use of their intellectual property, e.g. when you link against Apple libraries which are then compiled into your binary.

We get up in arms about GPL violations, but also want Apple to suck shit. I don't think it's right to want it both ways.

The EU Comission press release: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_25_...

It’s funny to see a “share this page on Facebook” option at the bottom of the press release.

At least they seem to have their own system in place for displaying those share buttons, as there are no requests to 3rd party domains on page load, everything loads from *europa.eu. Could have been worse :)

Which shows that they're not discriminating. TikTok is missing, though.

EU comission has been fined for breaching GDPR they designed themselves

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/first-eu-court-fines-eu...

A government that is not above its own laws. Surprisingly difficult for some people here to appreciate.

It shouldn't be funny, social media isn't doing the world any favor, they gotta behave

“Not funny haha, funny weird”

> while Meta drew a penalty of €200 million for its "pay or consent" advertising model, which requires that European Union users pay to access ad-free versions of Facebook and Instagram

Wait, isn't pretty much all web content is like this nowadays? You have to buy youtube premium to avoid ads, how is it different?

Pay or have your information harvested and sold. Its extortion.

You’re missing a third option there, which makes it not extortion.

If the third way is "don't use the product" facebook have that covered too... they will harvest and sell your personal information.

I may be misreading it, but I believe the third option the EU is expects from Meta is non-targeted advertising.

Nobody was holding a gun up to my head forcing me to open Facebook or give them money

Who does Facebook sell data to?

"Harvested and processed to add cohort tags to include in advertisement real-time bidding contests so advertisers can know how much to bid", while more precise, isn't as punchy as "harvested and sold".

So it's not literally sold?

I've been confused about this for a while. Given data is what allows them a unique advantage for their advertising product, it seemed odd that Facebook would sell that data to others.

But to hear people talk, a company could literally buy personal information from Facebook.

Yeah, that makes sense. Facebook wants the data so they can provide more accurate advertising "cohorts". The accuracy is the value that other people see, hence "selling" the data even though they're really selling an ad view.

You must be either broke and/or paranoid. If it matters to you, pay up. If it doesn't, you get to use a service for free.

They are saying that there should be the option where you don't get your data harvested and are shown ads without your privacy being violated.

YouTube allows you to disable personalized ads.

https://www.youtube.com/intl/en_us/howyoutubeworks/user-sett...

It’s not about being shown ads, it’s about collecting (and sharing to third parties) private information that goes beyond the technically required amount to use the service. GDPR says companies need to get my consent in order to do that, that I am free to not give this consent and that a service can’t not be provided to me just because I don’t give this consent. Facebook and a bunch of other companies said “aha! We’ll just create a paid alternative!” but this doesn’t comply with the law. It just took a while to take this through the courts but if you read the law it’s clear they just stalled for time on this one.

Thanks for clarifying, it was confusing to figure that out from the article

> You have to buy youtube premium to avoid ads

Or you can block the ads in the browser for free. In this case, you have to consent being tracked (or pay) or otherwise the page will not display.

Millions is nothing for these companies. Just a cost of doing business.

Starting somewhere. The US ain't even doing that.

Not really. If citizens see "fines" and think "whew, they got their just deserts", it's almost worse than no fines.

But the EU is frequently performative, so it doesn't surprise me. It wouldn't surprise me if they agreed in advance with the EU the fines, behind some closed doors.

Nothing less than a billion these days even registers

It could look performative if you only look at citizens.

From other businesses POV though

- this becomes the final decision on this given behavior under the DMA. A precedent is set, that will guide any further enforcement.

- it also sets a stake in the ground for other back and forth litigations: the EU will actually fine the companies. We can argue whether this amount is too low, but on any further fines the question will never be whether the EU will actually do it (compare to the current US tariffs situation and you see why this matters)

- it's easier to expand to DMA adjacent companies as needed. If Bluesky ever had to be scrutinized, this would be a reference point.

Is this a fine the companies can appeal, or is this a final decision?

They can appeal.

They will appeal to Court so that they win another 2 years.

The "EU over-regulation" argument is pathetic. The exact opposite is true, 2-3 decades of zero regulation has led to Big Tech empires that can get away with anything.

It harms the free market, harms the freedom to compute, creates an asymmetrical extractive relation between mega-corp and average internet user, and omnipresent surveillance. It's anti-American if "American" still means a love of freedom, personal privacy and fair competition.

But I do understand the "new" American perspective. These companies are money printers some of which produce as much as $30B of pure profit in a single quarter. If such companies are to exist, they best be American I guess.

> The "EU over-regulation" argument is pathetic ... It's anti-American ... I do understand the "new" American perspective.

"American" means being able to make your own decisions without government overreach in every aspect of your life.

"American" means being able to decide if you want to engage with a business or not, without getting the government involved.

"American" means being able to reach the highest highs or risk the lowest lows on the power of your tenacity and skill alone, without having the government shoot you down when you succeed, or put meaningless performative roadblocks in your way.

"American" means understanding that the government is not your friend and it doesn't need to replace your own decision making capability or ability to make choices.

From your dismissive sneering tone you do not understand the American perspective. Honestly, I am not sure the typical European even could. You have not grown up in our culture, so ideas like personal responsibility, self-reliance, and the American spirit are foreign to you - or at least heavily deprioritized.

You simply sneer and scoff at these concepts. You do you - this is why the EU is three decades behind and totally, utterly dependent on foreign tech - yet still somehow convinced it could catch up "if it really wanted to."

> You do not understand the American perspective.

Honestly, understanding the USA is a pretty high bar in this day and age.

The EU is using populist claims to introduce laws with ideological bias (big corp bad, America bad, America corp super bad). Everyone knows the digital act was never meant to be a fair set of rules, it was introduced to punish US companies at will.

At the same time, most governments, public offices, agencies and businesses in Europe would not be able to operate normally without access to American software.

The problem is that it is way easier to (over)regulate and tax, than to create a strong environment for business and innovation to thrive, in order to grow your own tech giants.

The very idea of this regulation is that Tech Giants are not desirable, since they're mono- or oligopolies.

Any average EU politician would be far left in the US.

That's a lot of emotional words without a single bit of context from the actual article. Your comment is better suited to FOX news' website.

I don't see how your comment is adding value to the discussion besides claiming emotionality and an absurd reference to FOX news, which implies that my opinions are not welcome here and I should go elsewhere with them.

My post is my opinion, offering an entry point for a discussion to those who might have a different opinion from mine.

The opinion is so detached from reality that it’s not going to result in a useful discussion.

There’s nothing about America in the consumer protection laws. It doesn’t matter if the service provider is a corporation or a non profit.

You can have any opinion you want but if you don’t ensure the quality of it, people will call it out for what it is.

In some circles you can defend lack of intellectual rigor with „any opinion is valid” and „you just don’t like my politics”, but that’s useful for electoral politics, not for intellectual inquiry.

> The opinion is so detached from reality that it’s not going to result in a useful discussion.

Maybe you should try.

> There’s nothing about America in the consumer protection laws. It doesn’t matter if the service provider is a corporation or a non profit.

Thierry Breton and his "the sheriff is in town". Jean-Noël Barrot: "Apply with the Greatest Firmness"

Axel Voss, German MEP, called for the EU to use the DSA against (what he calls) fake news and platform owners like Elon Musk interfering in elections. This explicitly links the DSA to regulating US tech companies (particularly X).

Pedro Sánchez (Spanish Prime Minister) proposed using the DSA to regulate social media, fight bots, fake profiles, and go after tech barons undermining democracy - US platforms, of course.

You may agree or disagree with my views being right or wrong, but it is clear that the leitmotif seems to be EU politics vs US big tech here.

When it comes to election interference it’s more like EU vs Russia. Who owns the platforms is secondary, it’s not like TikTok should be allowed to do election interference because it isn’t American.

You’ll learn in the course of your future experience that not every discussion will introduce a new perspective into your life. And you usually can tell very early when that’s the case.

>Maybe you should try.

If somebody claims the moon is made of cheese without joking, I'm not going to argue with them. I'm going to laugh them out of the room assuming.

Your opinion is like claiming the moon is made of cheese.

By that ridiculous argument the federal case against Al Capone showed that the US tax code was ideologically biased against Italian Americans.

Can't deny that some EU politicians (mostly conservative ones, surprise, surprise) have a hidden agenda behind it.

The statement that gov & businesses in Europe would not be able to operate normally without American software is easy to disprove. Just look at how easy the Chinese or the Russians could shed or avoid their dependency on crappy Microsoft or expensive US cloud providers. The problem is just that many European politicians are so technically inept they believe it themselves.

"Over regulate and tax"? What? Have you done any reading on how almost all US tech companies go to extreme lengths to avoid paying tax?

Most companies in the world do exactly that. Prove me wrong.

Thanks for proving my point that they need more taxation.

Are you saying that if a business (or individual) wants to pay the lowest tax possible (legally, that is) it should be a reason for more taxation? Is that what taxation is about, revenge?

Of cause that is a reason for more taxation.

There are 2 types of taxes: Those we charge for revenue and those we charge for behavior.

We don't charge income tax to deter people from working. We charge income tax because we really need money to fund stuff.

If you can not raise enough money, because companies / individuals are optimizing their tax, then you change it such that the budget holds.

... Oh well, I reckon if you are in the US you just keep borrowing. In that case, sorry about my reasoning.

The real problem was that Silicon Valley was flooded with capital and bought out all competitors. Or undercut with free. Or all kinds of other Microsoftlike practices. So nobody was left in the EU to advocate for better rules.

If that is true, how come new competitors spring up all the time in Silicon Valley and other places in the US while the European sector lies dormant?

That's just a US propaganda myth people can't stop parroting. The SV ecosystem is definitely better funded, but there is no lack of digital start-ups in the EU.

Consider what happened to Nokia. The first business blunder caused it to be sold to US and gutted. Now if someone else wants to make smartphones in EU, has to start from scratch. But if that happens to US company, everything(at least the IP) stays in the US.

Nokia is a strange story. I remember when it happened, and absolutely everybody knew it would kill the company to sell it to Microsoft. So of course the leaders and owners of Nokia knew the same thing. My guess is that they decided that they couldn't compete with the iPhone and decided to cash out what they could. Maybe Microsoft could help them with shuttling money to offshore accounts or some other under the table services? Nokia was publicly traded, so it could have been a great robbing of small time investors. But did Microsoft really get anything out of the deal that was worth the price?

I had the Nokia N9 at the time, which was years ahead of its time and one of the most well designed smartphones so far, both in hardware and especially in software. Modern iOS and Android still look dated in comparison.

Would looove to distribute an app without it having to be in the App Store, and not paying the App Store fee (direct download of signed binary). Happy to pay a yearly fee or fee per update to cover code review if it’s crucial. But 30% of revenue for doing bugger all… cmon, they’re squeezing the lemon a bit too hard.

Personally I wouldn’t install software unless it were from a really trusted person doing something extremely unique and useful that doesn’t have an alternative on the Apple Store (think UTM with JIT for iPad).

Please don’t take that as a negative comment but I suspect most people source their software from conveniently centralized repos whether it be App Store, Steam or even the main package manager on a Linux distribution.

Great, and you are free to do so and will continue to be free to do so.

The point is that the OP is not free to do so.

>Great, and you are free to do so and will continue to be free to do so.

Not necessarily, once other channels are available developers could choose to force their clients down that road.

Most and mostly.

But I'd still like to be able to install whatever the fuck I want on my iPhone, should I decide to based on my own criteria, without going through Apple or even a fucking "alternative app store" that is still Apple censored.

The point is that it becomes your choice. For example some people might choose to use a different web browser instead of Safari on their Apple device so they can use some web apps fully and not have to install similar local apps at all.

You mentioned linux package managers, these existing are proof enough that a 30% cut isn't required for ensuring the safety of what you install. In fact, I'd wager there is that much more dangerous garbage in the app store than in pacman's database.

As much as I think Apple's cut is unreasonable, I think all this shows is that people are making a lot more dangerous software for apple's larger less tech savvy userbase than for arch's.

The Linux package repositories take a 30% cut of zero. If the software wasn't free, it would be entirely reasonable for them to demand a cut

I can install Jetbrains via most linux package managers, launch it, and pay money. I can install steam and pay for games. I can install sublime text and give em cash.

Arch linux doesn't try to take 30% of all the games I buy on steam, nor does it prevent steam from asking me for my credit card.

Apple reviews all apps to make sure they don't ask for your credit card, don't tell you where you can buy the same good online, and make sure that if you do sell anything, apple gets its 30% cut, even if it's a virtual store like steam. That's the reason you can't buy kindle books on iOS (even though you can buy apple books? Weird? Isn't that illegal anti-competitive behavior?)

It would absolutely not be reasonable for linux package managers to demand that I pay 30% more for all games on steam if I did "pacman -Sy steam" vs downloading steam from valve's website and figuring out how to get it working on arch-linux (taking the deb, extracting it with 'ar', and installing some dependencies)

On Android there's a repository called F-Droid which offers free software. Apple won't let anyone create a FOSS repo like that for iOS.

> cmon, they’re squeezing the lemon a bit too hard

They got hooked on the lemon juice. Nobody at Apple making millions a year to write emails and sit in meetings wants to be out on the street for putting up their hand and saying "hey lets just take 10% and have a healthy ecosystem long term, which will let us continue to sell phones to people every year with a profit margin of $500".

Phil Schiller has actually made some comments about being less greedy, like possibly ratcheting down the 30% cut once the App Store started making serious revenue or not shaking down developers if they use external payment methods. Not that Schiller has actually made any changes at Apple to do any of the less greedy things.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/4/22418828/apple-app-store-c...

https://www.macrumors.com/2025/02/25/apples-phil-schiller-co...

That was a long time ago. Now,

> “You download the app and it doesn’t work, that’s not what we want on the store,” says Schiller. This, he says, is why Apple requires in-app purchases to offer the same purchasing functionality as they would have elsewhere.

https://techcrunch.com/2020/06/18/interview-apples-schiller-...

From what I hear, users are tired of installing apps. You can make a website and not face any gatekeepers or restrictions.

What if your app needs to send notifications and/or use bluetooth, for instance ?

All modern browsers support notifications:

https://caniuse.com/notifications

Bluetooth is limited to Chrome because Apple and Mozilla were concerned about privacy and security:

https://caniuse.com/web-bluetooth

From what I hear, most users disable notifications.

You can do like Airbnb and send text messages.

You can do Bluetooth in JavaScript through the Web Bluetooth API.

A little caveat of Web Bluetooth API is that it's like WebUSB and mostly available on Chrome. I don't think Chrome for iOS is using blink yet so you'll probably not have access to this API on iOS.

Both WebUSB and WebBluetooth is still a draft spec, and is doubtful to progress any further with both Mozilla and Webkit objecting to it

https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/#web-bluetooth

https://webkit.org/tracking-prevention/#anti-fingerprinting

Essentially, these are proprietary that are a part of an embrace, extend, and extinguish strategy by Google Chrome.

> From what I hear, most users disable notifications.

Where’d you hear that? Surely most users don’t change defaults.

There isn’t a default on iOS, you’re prompted for each new app when it requests notification permissions. People have found that users hit no a lot more when the app prompts with no explanation than when it clearly explains what benefit it has to the user.

Then the flood of notifications gets ignored, with practically the same result.

PWAs offer support for push notifications [1], but apparently they are not as seamless as in native apps, especially on iOS.

If you've never heard of PWAs [2], they allow you to add native mobile app functionality to a mobile website, including the ability to install your website as though it were an app, and ability to cache resources for offline use. I haven't worked on app development for a while, but when I did several years ago, all that was required to turn a mobile website in to a PWA was a service worker file (a JS file to define resource caching rules), and a manifest.json file (essentially metadata used by the home screen icon, including title and icon image).

Apparently PWAs still aren't on par with native apps in terms of capability and UX. Nonetheless I hope PWAs become popular for their simplicity, and for being decoupled from platforms. It's a bit insane to me that native app development usually requires heavy platform specific IDEs (Android Studio, Xcode), both of which have steep learning curves, and after all that development effort, you only have an app that works on 1 platform. Building a basic mobile app shouldn't require anything more than HTML, JS and CSS, and it shouldn't be tied to any specific platform.

1. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Progressive_web...

2. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Progressive_web...

AIUI Apple has deliberately kneecapped PWAs on iOS to stop them competing with their App Store.

Most apps that "need" to send notifications don't, in fact, need to.

Yeah but, what about apps that actually do ?

There are web APIs for both.

“Web Bluetooth” is a Blink-only API that both Mozilla and Apple rejected on security grounds.

What a weird thing to put in scare quotes.

Not on iOS. There’s no Bluetooth support in safari.

Web apps offer a subpar experience.

Meanwhile on Hacker News: "Web apps suck. Native apps are so much better. Why can't everything be a native app?"

The barrier of entry for me is having to pay $99/year just to notarize and sign my macOS applications that me and maybe three other people use. Just a lot easier to link to instructions on how to bypass Gatekeeper or make them compile it themselves from source.

Although I think my go-to instructions at https://disable-gatekeeper.github.io/ are not being kept up to date?

No, the barrier is to pay above 1m downloads. $99/yr is a o(everything your have to do to publish a safe app online and maintain it safe).

Breach. Get sued. Pay Fine. Rinse. Repeat.

At this point it looks like governments want the money and companies are gleefully willing to pay.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I get it that millions isn't much but it's something, and at least it sends a signal.

Frankly, the whole "it's pointless, so this is stupid" response to some things is more tiring to me than anything. What exactly is the end-game for these people? All or nothing? That is just delusional. It is simply not how progress is made. So let's be appreciative of what little is done, and push for more?

Not to mention the amount of people in here just focusing on the fine - by the way, I don't know how people can square the belief that these companies are endlessly greedy and will do anything for more money, with the belief that half a billion euros lost profit will just sit well with them - while completely ignoring the bit where these companies either comply or face even more fines.

All in agreement behind closed doors with the EU bureaucrats

> The EU fines could stoke tensions with U.S President Donald Trump who has threatened to levy tariffs against countries that penalise U.S. companies.

Mark Zuckerberg, in his appearance on Joe Rogan's podcast, specifically noted this as his goal for falling in behind Trump. That Trump would be the big-stick man that would protect Meta and other cos from foreign interference. Where "interference" is anything restricting that American exceptionalism "do anything we want, however we want".

Only then Trump started a trade war with quite literally the entire world -- aside from, predictably, Russia -- and now he holds, as he likes to say, no cards. The EU and anyone else can do whatever they want and Zuck and co can cry about the millions they wasted trying to buy a protection racket.

Of course Meta could just withdrawn from the EU. I wish they would withdraw from Canada. Their garbage misinformation platform is a massive net negative for humanity and has offered nothing but harm for the planet.

> Of course Meta could just withdrawn from the EU.

I mean, probably not without being sued by their shareholders. As a public company, you cannot simply abandon 40bn revenue/year because you feel aggrieved.

But yeah, the "you'd better be nice to us, EC, or Trump might be angry" tactic is kinda shot at this point.

> I mean, probably not without being sued by their shareholders. As a public company, you cannot simply abandon 40bn revenue/year because you feel aggrieved.

What are the laws that Meta would be violating?

>As a public company, you cannot simply abandon 40bn revenue/year because you feel aggrieved.

The fines need to get bigger then.

Most Canadian small businesses rely on Meta to get customers.

If you think these companies don't add value, you are totally oblivious to the millions of small businesses that rely on these platforms to reach customers and niche audiences around the world.

They need a platform, but it doesn't have to be Meta.

Yeah, because small businesses didn't exist before Facebook arrived.

[flagged]

I've seen too much from the last few years (covid, mostly, but other things) to take much stock in what people are commonly referring to as misinformation

But yeah, I don't like what they do competition wise (Whatsapp seems like clear antitrust) and their products are badly designed (have more things shoved into your feed that you're not following!)

I've worked at most FAANG companies, including Google, Apple, and Meta in the past (not currently).

In my experience working at these companies and diving into the reported incidents/issues (e.g. Batterygate, Myanmar, Cambridge Analytica), I have found that comments like yours present an overly reductive worldview. You are likely entirely informed by ragebait news articles that grossly misrepresent the issues as opposed to a nuanced understanding of (1) the widely reported incidents, and (2) the services these companies provide and those that rely on them to make a living.

No, it would not be replaced "in an instant" with other options, and any other options would quickly evolve into the same state as FB/IG today unless you make targeted ads illegal (which - again - would collapse millions of small businesses and centralize power for wealthy large businesses).

My experience using Facebook is that every third post is an advertisement, often for something I can't even buy (common one: a tax adviser specialising in US citizens living in the UK, when I'm British and live in Germany), or are not gender appropriate (they've shown me ads both for boob surgery and for dick pills).

Another third are "recommendations" for groups that are often not merely of zero interest, but geographically irrelevant — a page for a team I've never heard of in a sport I don't follow in a state I've never even visited, that kind of thing.

The remaining third are mostly from just one person, because everyone else I know seems to feel much the same way about the website and have mostly stopped posting content there.

My actual, literal, spam folder is less irrelevant than what Facebook shows me on the default feed.

> No, it would not be replaced "in an instant" with other options, and any other options would quickly evolve into the same state as FB/IG today unless you make targeted ads illegal (which - again - would collapse millions of small businesses and centralize power for wealthy large businesses).

1) It's already centralised, that's the problem.

2) We managed OK before the internet enabled targeted ads. Back then, local newspapers were a thing (I still get them around here), and you could put an ad for your barber shop or dance hall in that. Local forums that you can find on a search engine are still able to serve local ads, without targeting or profiling users. Biggest problem with that is that spam was already a problem 20 years ago (personal experience trying to host a phpBB forum), and now we've got LLMs that make it increasingly difficult to even know if you're talking to a fellow human let alone a fellow resident of ${local area} or member of ${specific interest group}.

> We managed OK before the internet enabled targeted ads. Back then, local newspapers were a thing (I still get them around here), and you could put an ad for your barber shop or dance hall in that

To be fair, we are in a wholly different world today. The small business landscape has changed dramatically - most of them are online. I get instagram ads for my really niche hobbies, and I don't mind.

Example: Let's say you're into "titanium miniature puzzles" (https://www.lazels.com/)

There is no chance of that business surviving based off of local newspaper ads alone - the likelihood of finding a viable customer base in your town is low. Generalized ads would be totally unaffordable to reach widely enough to cover your viable target customer base, which is sparse and global. Search based ads don't work because people don't even know this exists until they see it.

But good ad targeting enables instant global reach to the specific people that are likely to be interested in what you're selling. There may only be 1k-10k people globally interested in buying $500 titanium miniature puzzles, but if you can reach them, that's enough for your small business to survive.

Lots of small businesses rely on this. I'm not sure about "millions" but on the order of 100k seems likely, if you assume there's one interesting niche business for every 80k people.

That kind of example matches what I was saying about forums.

Targeting ads to a forum is (with consent) fine, in the way that targeting a person isn't.

I see what you mean - but I am not sure it would work for the "you don't know what you don't know" cases, or cases where the user isn't invested enough to follow the relevant forum.

I personally wasn't interested in miniature titanium puzzles until I saw the ad - I'm not interested in puzzles in general, so I wouldn't have found it via a puzzle forum.

The same pattern can be seen in my other hobbies (tritium collecting, mokume and titanium/zirconium Damascus items, unique independent watches, flashlight collecting, rocks).

I'm involved enough to buy something from an ad while scrolling through my friends' timelines or reels, but certainly not enough to frequent a forum on these topics. So I am not sure forums suffice.

> would collapse millions of small businesses

How? And do they have the right to exist if their only income is targeted ads?

How do you expect small businesses to acquire customers? Spending tens of millions of dollars competing in generalized ad space to reach the same audience they can reach today with $1000?

Most small businesses that exist today would become nonviable overnight, and that is a huge chunk of the economy. Sure, you can say "they shouldn't have the right to exist" because they use targeted ads, but I have yet to hear a solid argument for why such ads are an infringement on our fundamental rights such that the whole SMB segment of the economy is worth destroying.

Do you seriously think that ? My experience is so dissociated that I think it unbelievable. I don't remember ever seeing an ad for a small business on the web, even less discovered one through them.

I discovered most small businesses that I use through word of month, seeing them while traveling or active search through google or google maps. The ones that I may have discovered through ad where through local physical add such as any box fliers or fliers/posters in other local businesses.

in order for to see small business ads you really have to have your browser fully exposed in order to be targeted - small business are local and feeding ads for a massage parlour in sam diego to me 3,000 miles away is not a good allocation of marketing money. I am 50 and have never, not once discovered a small business through an online ad

Let me guess, there were no small businesses in the whole world before the advent of digital automated targeted ads?

More like targeted ads enabled hundreds of thousands of small businesses to exist.

Because small businesses didn't exist before meta?

A tech bro true believer comes to the rescue to set us all straight. Of course the world would fall apart if Thanos snapped his fingers and disappeared Meta.

Thinking about I might watch that movie, a Thanos redemption arc maybe...

>You are likely entirely informed by ragebait news articles

Sure. Do you think I haven't experienced every aspect of Meta properties? Instagram reels, for instance, is a racist hellhole full of the most vile content and snuff videos. It seems to have zero moderation, profiting off of the worst of humanity[1]. Facebook actively runs obvious scam ads for scam businesses and does absolutely nothing if you report it.

Meta at this point is basically a criminal operation.

And it's hilarious how much fear mongering there was about Tiktok (which is a positively benign platform compared to Meta's garbage platforms). I recently uninstalled Instagram after it fed me an endless stream of 51st state propaganda, despite the fact that I Not Interested/Blocked every single occurrence (this was around the time that Instagram turned up the "snuff" dial so millions were getting feeds full of violent deaths[2], which is a mechanism that immediately should subject Meta to government inquiries). Meta properties should be banned everywhere outside the US purely based upon the fact that they're enemy propaganda at this point.

>and any other options would quickly evolve into the same state as FB/IG today

No, they wouldn't. Like literally somehow loads of other sites manage to not be the cesspools of garbage that Meta properties are. This is by design. Here in Canada, engagement on Facebook has dropped to negligible levels outside of the 51st state/conspiratorial sorts. Reddit is an enlightened intellectual promised land compared to the shithole that Meta properties all are.

>which - again - would collapse your small businesses

This is such nonsense. The only businesses that are reliant upon Meta are largely scammy new-age bullshit. And your rhetoric is like saying that if McDonalds closed millions would go hungry because surely there is no way for people to eat otherwise.

And again you've tried to pull other companies in. Google offers enormous value to the world. They are largely a responsible company. Apple offers value. Netflix offers value. Microsoft offers value.

META...blinked out of existence and the world would be much better. Meta is the world's digital Purdue Pharma.

[1] And to be clear, I'm a free speech person. That fringe sites exist where people ply this content is fine. That a major corporation seems to build a business around it, however, monetizing nuts and mental illness and racism and conspiracies and violence, is absolutely disgusting, and I cannot comprehend how someone could work at Meta without feel shame every moment of every day.

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/feb/27/instagram...

Reddit can be astroturfed to hell, I don't trust it. Mods are shared across subreddits, they ban you for unjustified reasons, as does the site in general

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>This really isn't civil

It's a statement of fact. Meta profits off the worst of society. It is a heinous company.

If you find my comment so reprehensible, feel free to downvote, flag, etc. The crocodile-tear moralization comes across as concern trolling, and it's just a waste of bits.

>What is your end goal here?

You strangely keep editing this. I stated my thoughts. People are free to disagree. If it's so distressing to you I suggest you look inwards as to why that is.

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What is ugly or uncivil about noting someone's biases? The "your small businesses would fail without Meta" line is from the official lobbyist arm of Meta, and it's usually a pretty good tell that someone is a Meta employee and is thus likely to have a very rose coloured, idealized version of the org.

Full disclosure: I worked at Facebook from 2013 to 2018, almost entirely on ads.

Like, you may not want to hear this, but lots of SMBs get value from targeted ads, and this has lead to lots and lots of successful businesses.

I encourage my wife to use these kinds of ads (mostly on TikTok and IG these days) for her business, and they work reasonably well.

That's not to say that Facebook hasn't had a bunch of bad impacts on the world (Myanmar and other poorer countries come to mind), but the OP's point is a good one, and lots of people who don't work at Meta believe this.

Ultimately, Facebook provide a service that it appears lots of people like (I do use Whatsapp but not really the rest of them) and it's not up to you to determine whether or not they've been good or bad for society.

As I keep bringing up in these discussions, should we ban radios for their role in the Rwandan genocide?

Changing forms of communication are always going to cause societal changes, and we're currently living through the biggest one since the invention of the printing press.

I'm not sure one can blame just one company for all of this, and honestly if you had to pick one I'd probably pick Google for making it profitable to write garbage and monetise through ads (but as I said, the Internet and computer mediated communication are a huge change and it's basically impossible to say what actually drove the changes).

What do you achieve with that? Isn't it better to argue against the points made rather than argue against the person making them? Anybody could have made the same points.

Someone here hazarded the hypothesis that Trump's tariffs are a stick aimed not towards other countries, but towards American corporations, who have to pledge fealty (and resources) to Trump in exchange for relief. I think it makes a lot of sense, if any of this is rational, which I'm not entirely sold on.

It's always funny when shit happens and everyone jumps over themselves to figure out what "5D chess" the people in charge are playing. There's never any chess. They are just incompetent.

That's not 5D chess at all. Very straightforward, in fact, and backed up by the documented strong-arming of law firms.

You gotta kick back to the big guy.

Look at 47's truth social some time. In between the posts 'destroying' liberals and lionising the worst actors in his party, he posts up a disturbing amount of 'settlements' with Law Firms that previously displeased him.

They were basically forced at gunpoint to make deals to provide pro bono services to the Trump administration, in return for regulators dropping investigations into their diversity practices.

The firms - including Kirkland & Ellis, Latham & Watkins, Allen Overy Shearman Sterling, Simpson Thacher & Bartlett, and Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft – are among the most prestigious and recognized firms in the US.

Cadwalader is the former firm of Todd Blanche, who resigned his partnership there to represent Trump in criminal cases when the firm would not take on Trump as a client. Blanche is now the deputy attorney general – the number two official at the Department of Justice.

Overall the MAGA cabinet has now secured more than $900m in pro bono pledges from law firms threatened with either executive orders or investigations from the equal opportunity commission. How this isn't seen as a straight up RICO case or old-fashioned criminal shakedown is beyond me.

These fines make sense. The EU is driving a pro-competition capitalist model. American companies will have to compete, and not just entrap users.

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US companies are free to not operate in Europe.

There's nothing special about US software engineering vs. software engineering made elsewhere from a purely technical and know-how point of view.

The key difference is availability of capital and appetite for risk that make US exceptional by enabling a speed of scaling and execution not possible anywhere else (well, other than China).

If US companies that can't be bothered to follow EU laws leave the +500M people market that is the EU, I'm positive some other equally competent alternative (local or otherwise) would appear sooner or later to fill in the gap.

Perhaps the same regulations that US companies keep running afoul of are the regulations that prevent European investors from putting money behind European startup competitors.

The EU has some extremely strong consumer protection laws, which is excellent for consumers, but it comes with downsides too.

> Perhaps the same regulations that US companies keep running afoul of are the regulations that prevent European investors from putting money behind European startup competitors.

Nah, it's all the capital which gets invested into the US caused by the dollar's role in international payments that drives the US exceptionalism is tech.

Like, 65% of world equity value relates to 4% of the world population. That's not sustainable long-term, and if something cannot go on forever, then one day it will stop (and we might be seeing that start to happen now).

Don't get me wrong, the US market has a bunch of advantages (large, one language, standard regulation) but it's mostly all the capital sloshing around that drives the outperformance of the US tech companies.

You simply cannot dismiss the omnipresent differences in American and EU mindset/culture as playing a role in each country's entrepreneurial success and ability to build and scale innovations.

There is a huge culture difference: Having spent time in both countries, an entrepreneurial spirit is valued far more in American culture and is far more present than in the EU.

> If you want to sideload, just get an Android device. There is no monopoly here.

The Digital Markets Act is not about a user's right to sideload. It's about 100s of thousands of businesses' right to reach billions of users without Apple in the middle. That's why it's called the Digital Markets Act, not the Phone User Rights Act

They could equally make the whole thing subscription-only, but they're not going to do that.

> gerrymandered

This word doesn't simply mean 'I don't like this', you know.

Facebook is under no obligation to operate in Europe. Of course, they make about 40 billion revenue in Europe annually, so they will be inclined to want to stay in Europe. And they can do this! They just have to follow the rules.

I'll be generous and assume you're being disingenuous by accident: This isn't about the ads, it's about the tracking. Meta is free to put ads wherever it wants, but it's not free to track people who don't want to be tracked.

In the end, a population has the right to govern itself how it wants. There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with that - Meta is free to simply not operate in the EU.

Why shouldn't you allowed to track people across your own services if users consent? If they don't consent, they are free to simply not use your services. Problem solved.

There is no actual need for this law. No rights are being infringed on. Just don't use the website.

Because that's how we like it, and that's the end of it. The people of the EU have said that these are the rules for doing business there, and saying "I should be able to murder people in my own house, if you don't want to be murdered, just don't come here, there's no need for anti-murdering laws" is rather irrelevant.

> saying "I should be able to murder people in my own house, if you don't want to be murdered, just don't come here, there's no need for anti-murdering laws"

The Americans call this "stand your ground".

Well, half "touché", half "precisely".

Conversely, you can justify any authoritarian unjust law because "that's how we like it."

"Deporting brown people without due process? That's how we like it, who are you to complain? You're free to not work with the US, but we know you will!"

Obviously a nuanced and meaningful conversation goes much deeper than "that's how we like it." Why is it such an infringement on user rights to not be allowed to use a website if they don't follow the owner's terms of use? That is unaddressed.

Funny choice of example considering that it is the US that is currently deporting people without due process.

Yes, that is the precise example I used to demonstrate why "we like it that way" is not good policy. I don't get what's so funny.

Why doesnt this same logic apply to meta? They don't have to comply with this law if they don't want to, its their choice to operate in the EU

> across your own services

What are Facebook's own services? Or Google's for that matter.

Neither tracks you just when you're on facebook.com or google.com. They track you everywhere.

> Just don't use the website.

https://www.newsweek.com/heres-how-turn-off-tracking-faceboo... https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/how-to-stop-facebook-from-spyin... https://www.wired.com/story/ways-facebook-tracks-you-limit-i...

This logic works just the same applied to Meta, without the requiring the expectation that Meta should be able to operate without following the law.

Why shouldn't Meta be forbidden to track people? It's the law. If they don't want to follow the applicable law in the jurisdiction they operate in they can cease their operations there.

Blaming Europe for "rent-seeking" when enforcing basic consumer protections rules on those massive foreign-propaganda disinformation and wealth extraction engines really takes the cake. Fuck Meta, if it was up to me Facebook, Instagram and X would have been long gone from European soil. We gain nothing from them.

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Because the fine is exactly about giving people a more fair chance to vote with their wallets.

This is from the Yahoo article:

"The EU competition watchdog said Apple must remove technical and commercial restrictions that prevent app developers from steering users to cheaper deals outside the App Store."

You can buy an android or huawei phone. Just because the ecosystem you like to use doesn't have certain features doesn't make it a monopoly.

Setting aside that this is looking at the wrong side of the market like often happens in these discussions, what do you as a consumer do when Android or Huawei do something else that's a deal breaker for you?

But this is exactly the argument against forcing Apple to change. The reason I use iOS is because of the App Store. If meta create a meta store for Facebook and Instagram, and pull it from the App Store, then the platform that I use for that feature is no longer viable for me, and neither is the competing platform. Right now you have a choice, as do I - an open ecosystem on android or a closed ecosystem on iOS. By forcing iOS to open up, people who actively choose the closed ecosystem for guaranteed compatibility, tighter integrations and a less customisable ux are removed of their option.

To use the sandbox analogy, there are two sandboxes. A lets you bring your own toys, B only lets you choose from the toys they provide. I choose to go to B because of the toys they provide and because I don’t want to deal with the toys other people bring. People from A like the look of my sandbox so the rules get changed, and now there’s two sandboxes with the same rules, you have two choices and my preference is gone.

Stop using them. What do you do if every car manufacturer does something that's a "deal breaker"? Don't make a deal with them by not buying a car.

> What do you do if every car manufacturer does something that's a "deal breaker"

Sane societies recognize the problem and regulate it out of existence.

Preference is subjective. I hate touch screens in cars that so anything but provide a screen for my phone, others love them. Should we ban touch screen controls because of my preference? I like to have a curated app store for my phone and not have a free-for-all with multiple stores of varying quality where I need to set up a new store just to use a popular app. So I can buy an iphone and people who have a different preference can buy an Android phone. If consumers actually cared that much they'd just avoid iOS. It's the magic of the market. Let's have consumers put their money where their mouth is! Stated preference and revealed preference often differ for a reason.

Your cars touchscreen is not a marketplace. The M in DMA is for markets, which is what the regulation targets. Now if your car manufacturer sold the car and someone else sold the touchscreen then you could talk about this but as it stands its a false equivalence.

Apple has a market within iOS over which it can arbitrarily enforce anti-competitive rules, the EU regulates this type of behaviour.

Yes, my point is that this regulation shouldn't exist in the first place. Don't like the iPhone, don't buy the iPhone!

I think it's more likely that insane societies do - elevate one person's consumer choices to national scale.

You can leave the market if you dont like the rules of the market.

Consumers should have greater and greater access to markets with more favorable conditions. It’s not acceptable to have consumer hostile markets in many respects e.g. healthcare. It would behoove us as consumers to demand access to markets as mundane as cellular phones. Accepting market manipulation by oligopolistic companies to reduce choice and walking away from phone ownership altogether seems counter productive for everyone.

Or I can buy an iPhone and Apple doesn’t break the law :)

Apple can also exit the EU market if they don't want to comply with the law.

Just because the regulation doesn't suit its business model doesn't make it mandatory to be present in a given market.

Switching from one duopoly to another isn't choice.

The irony is that smaller American companies stand the most to benefit from EU DMA, including startups. Stripe could offer deeper payment integration without the Apple cut. You could start an indie game store. And Garmin can make better sport watches with better integration.

The first beneficiary is likely to be Epic, since this is basically what they were asking for in the Fortnite lawsuit.

Literally every single company that transacts with consumers through digital purchases currently subject to Apple/Google tax is a beneficiary. If you believe in the power of the free market then lower fees for them will mean lower prices for us.

Because in a case of monopoly, the people can not vote with their wallet.

Except the smartphone market isn't a monopoly.

20 years ago Europe had a thriving phone industry. Now it's just gone, and they want to blame everyone else for this, and fail to reflect on why it happened.

Except this has nothing to do with some monopoly on the smartphone market, but with Apple not allowing application developers to enable their users to vote with their wallets on payment methods. From the press release:

> Under the DMA, app developers distributing their apps via Apple's App Store should be able to inform customers, free of charge, of alternative offers outside the App Store, steer them to those offers and allow them to make purchases. > > The Commission found that Apple fails to comply with this obligation. Due to a number of restrictions imposed by Apple, app developers cannot fully benefit from the advantages of alternative distribution channels outside the App Store. Similarly, consumers cannot fully benefit from alternative and cheaper offers as Apple prevents app developers from directly informing consumers of such offers. The company has failed to demonstrate that these restrictions are objectively necessary and proportionate.

This has nothing to do with smartphones specifically, it applies equally well to anything in the AppStore ecosystem.

This is like arguing McDonalds has a monopoly over food sold in McDonalds outlets, when you have a choice to not go into McDonalds.

This is:

1. Not about any monopoly (in fact the word "monopoly" does not appear in the press release at all).

2. Nothing like McDonalds, whose business model is completely different from an app store's.

3. Not about Apple can do to consumers who aren't in the Apple ecosystem but about what it can do to developers who wish to sell their applications and services for Apple devices.

If you really insist on making an analogy that involves McDonalds: that's like arguing that McDonalds should not be allowed to prevent Coca-Cola from telling Coca-Cola customers that they can buy Coca-Cola in places other than McDonalds. Which, yeah, they're not allowed to.

> If you really insist on making an analogy that involves McDonalds: that's like arguing that McDonalds should not be allowed to prevent Coca-Cola from telling Coca-Cola customers that they can buy Coca-Cola in places other than McDonalds. Which, yeah, they're not allowed to.

Neither the App Stores or McDonalds have any control over what you do outside of them. That's your problem, individually and collectively.

Except Apple tried to exert control over that, which is exactly what they got fined for, because it's illegal.

They did the equivalent of saying to Coca Cola if you discover a customer via the App Store then we get a cut of it, which is a very normal and common arrangement, even if disagreeable.

No, they did the equivalent of saying to Coca-Cola if you discover a customer via the App Store then you cannot tell them they can buy Coca-Cola from outside the App Store, too, a decidedly anti-competitive practice that also happens to be illegal in just about every European country, even without EU intervention.

You cannot tell them _within the app_.

You absolutely can tell the customer via your website or any other means you use to communicate with them.

Do you expect Amazon marketplace sellers to be able to link to their items being on ebay or shopify from the actual Amazon website?

> Do you expect Amazon marketplace sellers to be able to link to their items being on ebay or shopify from the actual Amazon website?

From the Amazon website? No. From the products they're selling? Yes, absolutely, and lots of them do, I get one of those business cards with "Find us on Amazon/Ebay/Shopify/whatever" in the box with almost every purchase.

Same with apps. I obviously don't expect them to link to items from other stores from their App Store description pages. But from their application? Yes, I totally expect that.

That's how marketplaces everywhere work, including IRL. Go to any farmer's market and most sellers will give you a business card with their website or phone number so you can also order from them directly, or from their Amazon/Shopify/whatever page.

Edit: not to mention that this is 2025, the distinction between "within the app" and "via your website" is pretty meaningless in a bunch of cases.

> From the Amazon website? No.

Why not?

A major detail you are ignoring here is Apple are the merchant of sale for everything via the App Store (Google at least were not for the Play Store at launch, I do not know if this has changed) so your comparisons do not make sense. The native app universe on iOS is closest to being an Apple run Costco.

I would be very surprised if a fulfilled by Amazon order for a third party seller contained any extra promo materials in the box for similar reasons.

> not to mention that this is 2025, the distinction between "within the app" and "via your website" is pretty meaningless in a bunch of cases.

To you. Not to your end users, and most definitely not to the platform owners.

It's not my comparison. It's yours, and just as meaningless as your previous one about McDonald's.

This one's no better, either, as Costco's terms for its wholesale suppliers aren't anywhere close to Apple's, even though the agreement is structured more or less similarly -- but sure, let's entertain it: Costco's terms for its suppliers aren't public, but at least the ones that are on public record (via the SEC: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1940372/000149315222... ) make no restrictions on the choice of payment processors for digital products, which is what Apple got fined for.

There is a restriction on promotional material enclosed with the product (as in it needs prior written approval from Costco, not as in it's completely banned) and an explicit mention that it applies to digital products as well. But there is no requirement that digital products sold by Costco as merchant of sale for the supplier enable purchases only via Costco.

The root of your confusion is you think when you've installed and run the app you are no longer in "Costco", but you never left.

You can buy any number of in game items on iOS and then go and use those same items in the Play Store version of the games, and vice versa.

The root of yours is that you keep trying to make this about McDonalds, Amazon, Ebay, Costco or some other contraption instead of the App Store, which is what this is actually is about. Not that the argument matters, because the exact moment when you leave Costco has no bearing on the fact that Costco doesn't restrict what payment processor are used in the digital goods that it sells.

But even if it did, Apple's ToS clearly distinguish between the App Store and the licensed application, and between interactions in the App Store and interactions from within the application. You may not want to make the same distinction in order to be right about some imaginary system that you're thinking about, but this is about the actual App Store, not whatever iMcCostco-Amazon marketplace you've dreamed up.

You're the Ivan the Terrible of bad metaphors and similies. They clearly anger you to an almost amusing degree.

As I pointed out:

> You can buy any number of in game items on iOS and then go and use those same items in the Play Store version of the games, and vice versa.

To be precise you can:

1. Install a game on an iPhone

2. Sign into the game with account for that developer, or even using Facebook

3. Buy in game currency in the game, using the Apple payment processing

4. Install the game on an Android phone

5. Sign into the game with that same account

6. Use the in game currency you bought on the iPhone when playing on the Android phone

7. Buy more in game currency in the Play Store using the Google payment processing

8. Go back to the iPhone and see you have the in game currency there

What is your mental model of how all that works and why?

All the metaphors I've used are yours, Ivan. Why would they anger me? I'm not the one who came up with them :-).

What you've pointed out has no bearing whatsoever on what's being discussed here. This isn't about some stretched out definition of "payment system" that applies to those services that happen to have both iOS and Android client applications. It's strictly about what works in applications available on Apple's App Store. For many of them your point 4 doesn't even apply because they don't have an Android variant in the first place.

Let me know when you'd like to go back to discussing the actual issue from the linked article. Bye!

You're making a lot of noise to distract from the fact it is entirely possible to use other payment mechanisms for digital goods to consume in apps, and that from comparison to stores for physical goods we established that promoting other means for purchasing from the app on a given platform is an unreasonable expectation, exactly like expecting Coca Cola served in McDonalds to be allowed to be labelled "available for 1 euro less at Burger King!"

Arguably their entire position with Meta is even more unreasonable than your positions here. No wonder the EU struggles in business.

Nope. That's a lie. You're a liar. They didn't start out like that all, and to pretend otherwise is lying.

Yeah, keep slinging the insults.

You are perfectly free to have a website where you list your prices at one price point, and then have them different in the app because of the 30% cut, and that's very normal practice, even if everyone does complain about it.

Btw Google do exactly the same thing.

> [the App Stores does not] any control over what you do outside of them

Well, we are talking about Apple's App Store, not just an App Store, and in that case, it's Apple. So, Apple wants to exert control over what you as an app developer do outside of the App Store. That's the problem. The fact that you think that's not happening means you know it's wrong.

No, it's within the App that is distributed on the App Store.

Plenty of companies will charge you different prices for things based on whether you get them via the App Store or their website.

The whole point of the DMA is clarifying that from the point of view of the European Union, operating a digital market on a platform is not actually like going to a McDonalds.

There is no argument to be made by analogy here. The DMA always was clear regarding what constitutes a digital market and what the obligations of the companies operating them would be. If Apple is unhappy about that, they are free to stop operating the App Store in the EU.

The EU would have a lot more sympathy for this if there were any non trivial digital markets that originated in the EU, with the closest being Spotify, which they somehow claim is not a gatekeeper in the music industry.

They aren't being a decent regulatory body on this one, given they have not reflected on why they are in this position, nor are they being fair with applying their rules. (The same comment can be made about the ludicrous variation in applying the GDPR).

> The EU would have a lot more sympathy for this if there were any non trivial digital markets that originated in the EU

Why should that be a prerequisite?

The EU is sovereign. They are free to do whatever they want with their law. Let's not forget we are talking about the second consumer market in the world. There will be a lot more space for homegrown solutions or companies ready to comply if the foreign companies currently profiting decide to leave.

> There will be a lot more space for homegrown solutions or companies ready to comply if the foreign companies currently profiting decide to leave.

The core of what I'm trying to communicate is this is backwards.

If you took the Europeans out of Apple and Google they'd never have been able to build the iPhone or Android, or their associated stores. (And you could say this about other regions where the staff came from too). Why did those Europeans that helped the US leave the EU to do so? Because the companies in the US rewarded them as they recognized the explosive potential as the market developed.

The underlying problem is EU regulation is shortsighted, and always fighting the previous battle when it's been lost. They had every opportunity to lead this from the start. I namedropped GetJar earlier, but there was Jamster/Jamba and various services which the phone companies would subcontract to to run their own store fronts. I know of several aborted Android app stores and subscription services from the 2010 era, including those from Switzerland, Belgium and a certain large French company, and there are almost certainly more.

The time to address this was 15 years ago. Now their only viable path forward is to effectively fork Android and encourage adoption of their fork, much as the Chinese have. Their problem is they have to leave things like WhatsApp available, or their citizens will go nuts, and they will resist rewarding anyone involved with the technical side of the work, so it won't happen. They just want to punish the americans for having had the foresight that led to their success.

As an example, just look at how the europeans have failed to come up with something equivalent to WhatsApp, Signal or even Telegram. The closest is matrix and element, but again without the associated rewards for working on them they just aren't going to get up to the standards people expect, and so they languish with absolute idealists and those forced to use them.

> Their problem is they have to leave things like WhatsApp available, or their citizens will go nuts

WhatsApp would be displaced in a matter of days if not hours if made unavailable. You are far overestimating the amount of disruption a closure would provoke.

> They just want to punish the americans for having had the foresight that led to their success.

This is not about punishment. The DMA is about setting ground rules for a level playing field in the digital market space. It is at its heart a law about competition.

Europe wants the American companies to stop abusing their dominant positions and the closed markets they built. This is a prerequisite to a competitive market as it's basically impossible to foster competition when a few players have spent a decade entrenching themselves and building barriers to entry.

Thankfully, there are no rules which say American companies should reap unlimited benefits from their market manipulations and the overall laissez-faire attitude of the American regulator.

> As an example, just look at how the europeans have failed to come up with something equivalent to WhatsApp, Signal or even Telegram.

All of them have ready to use Asian competitors which would be more than happy to work with European regulators if American companies won't.

This is a HUGELY popular position the EU is taking WTF are you taking about?

It's admittedly popular with a certain demographic of would be app developers that either think the fees are what is stopping them being successful (they're not, although admittedly they are anachronistically high at this point) or they want to scam people.

There's no evidence that it is popular beyond that, especially among people that choose to use iOS.

This metaphor doesn't quite work because McDonalds aren't a marketplace. But the closest I can think of is if McDonalds sold the best hamburger boxes that people want to use at home, but then added a mechanism that only lets you put a burger in that box if whoever made that burger bribed MacDonalds, regardless of what's good for you as the burger consumer.

McDonalds are not responsible for what people do outside of McDonalds. If the entire potential customerbase decides to show up at McDonalds and exclusively eat there for five years bankrupting everyone else and McDonalds had behaved legally throughout then how are they the problem?

As I mentioned elsewhere, just look at the idiotic way Europe embraced WhatsApp. They genuinely believed it was free, and a huge proportion of users still don't understand it's attached to Meta and Facebook. They are so susceptible to product dumping by tech companies because they are astoundingly cheap and short sighted, and they will not pay for an alternative when the "free" version exists.

Except that there are hundreds of other food options while there are only two realistic options for smartphones, neither of which is cooking at home. The tight control has benefits - Apple’s App Store is much safer than letting your parents install stuff they find on the internet - but there’s a real downside which needs regulation to balance.

So we want to punish people that choose that option?

Europe could easily have had a homegrown alternative to the Play Store on Android. In fact at one time it had several, only the users had no interest at all, and this was before Google went through their phase of locking things down more.

The vision for what became the Play Store was born from ex GetJar, and I was told by several Googlers at the time that they were amazed by the lack of serious competing stores that people were running. Many threatened to do so (including my employer) but it was, from the business side, pure bluffing.

In China the android market does not rely on the Play Store, so we have definite proof it can be done.

> Europe could easily have had a homegrown alternative to the Play Store on Android. In fact at one time it had several, only the users had no interest at all, and this was before Google went through their phase of locking things down more.

So why should users not have the option anymore because years ago the existing options were worse than Google's?

Should you be forbidden to buy an iPhone because you used until Androids until now and passed on iPhones?

The problem is European users are too cheap, and European regulators too short sighted. It makes them hilariously prone to product dumping, where WhatsApp is "free" of course, except it isn't. They then mass adopt the "free" option and act surprised pikachu when it's not actually free.

What you are advocating is forcing a market option to change what it is, when a critical mass of their customers have chosen it precisely because of what it is.

> The problem is European users are too cheap, and European regulators too short sighted.

This seems to be a common issue for all countries, the US included.

(See the Chrome spin-off talks currently taking place.)

> What you are advocating is forcing a market option to change what it is, when a critical mass of their customers have chosen it precisely because of what it is.

Incorrect, users have chosen it for what it precisely was. After a certain size that choice does not exist anymore and the option is also very different compared to the initial choice (between the different app stores available at the time) made by users.

You're also mistaken in thinking that the hardware should automatically imply a specific software. This is not the case and we're going to slowly move to a place where the hardware is independent of the software and vice-versa for smartphones.

> This seems to be a common issue for all countries, the US included.

The US is much more resistant to it, which is a major factor in iOS share being higher and WhatsApp being an almost complete non event.

Similarly those same users bought into the iOS option entirely because of the better privacy enabled by not being "free" in the price sense. In a very real sense Apple are the regulators of their platform in that they define and execute the policies. People buy into it because they like that aspect of things, and prefer the Apple regulations to those created by their governments. The EU want to override the regulations of the platform, except being short sighted they don't appreciate the effects of their suggestions, and so they're being played particularly by Meta.

> This is not the case and we're going to slowly move to a place where the hardware is independent of the software and vice-versa for smartphones.

People have been saying this from the start, but if anything it's now diverging faster than before. If you launch a service today and have no native app presence you will not be regarded as credible in the marketplace.

> The US is much more resistant to it, which is a major factor in iOS share being higher and WhatsApp being an almost complete non event.

iOS has a larger market share in the US because iPhones are a status symbol in America whereas Europeans couldn't care less.

Which in turn makes iMessages market share larger in the US than in Europe.

iPhone market share is also pretty stagnant since 2023 in the US and way down worldwide since then.

If anything, I would consider the US WhatsApp user base numbers (~64M users) to be much more impressive than the iMessage user counts (~130 iPhone owners) because WhatsApp is not installed by default.

> People buy into it because they like that aspect of things, and prefer the Apple regulations to those created by their governments.

This very much has yet to be proven since "those (policies) created by their governments" has not been made possible by Apple yet. If Apple is so confident in their software quality, this additional competition should not be an issue for them.

> If you launch a service today and have no native app presence you will not be regarded as credible in the marketplace.

I meant that you'll buy the hardware but will then have the choice to install different operating systems and app market places. The same way computers have worked for the last 30 years.

> iPhones are a status symbol in America whereas Europeans couldn't care less.

Europeans absolutely could, they're just too tight fisted to actually spend money on things like protecting privacy which is a major part of the whole problem.

They are perfectly fine spending money on luxury cars.

> Europeans absolutely could, they're just too tight fisted to actually spend money on things like protecting privacy which is a major part of the whole problem.

Users in the US don't care about protecting their privacy either.

Examples:

1. Google Chrome market share in the US

2. GMail market share in the US

3. Google Search market share in the US

> Users in the US don't care about protecting their privacy either.

They absolutely do, you just like to dismiss it as being about status.

It was similar when RIM were on top in north america. The status came because of their association with business because they provided secure messaging. High status people care about privacy and security.

> They absolutely do, you just like to dismiss it as being about status.

No, they don't. I just gave you three counter examples.

Why is it that iPhone users prefer GMail over iCloud Mail?

Source: https://www.statista.com/chart/34197/share-of-us-respondents...

> The status came because of their association with business because they provided secure messaging.

Users have no understanding of security. High status or not.

> Users have no understanding of security. High status or not.

Upper middle class americans absolutely do, or they don't stay that way for very long. The US has a culture of a lot more personal responsibility, and a lot less trust of the government to handle it.

> Why is it that iPhone users prefer GMail over iCloud Mail?

They already had it from before people realized it was a bait and switch. Work users will almost certainly be using the Exchange integration, and private messaging is done via iMessage.

> They already had it from before people realized it was a bait and switch.

So you mean to say that they made the same mistake that the supposed European users did with the app stores?

> Upper middle class americans absolutely do, or they don't stay that way for very long.

Yet they are on the same very public and absolutely no private or secure social networks (Facebook, TikTok, Instagram) as the rest of the world?

> So you mean to say that they made the same mistake that the supposed European users did with the app stores?

Absolutely, and they learned from this, as did Apple, hence the rules they came up with to stop Google and Facebook from doing what they were trying to do, which the EU remain oblivious to, supposedly.

This is why new Google products and services are basically doomed to fail in the US market, almost regardless of how good they are.

> Yet they are on the same very public and absolutely no private or secure social networks (Facebook, TikTok, Instagram) as the rest of the world?

You missed a big one: Snapchat; popular mainly in the US purely because of the privacy angle. Those others you mention are used for deliberate sharing.

The United States regularly spies and throws federal lawfare at European companies.

E.g: Alstom

So I wouldn't consider the playing field to be fair in the first place.

With a lot of help/pressure from banks and rich traitors/politicans (https://www.marianne.net/economie/economie-francaise/dans-le...).

They mostly use our corruption against us, whis seems fair since it appears a big part of our population like protecting corrupt politicians/criminals

30 years ago maybe. 20 years ago there was a European monopolist which was killed off by Microsoft alumni who sold it to Microsoft.

No, Sony Ericsson was way more successful than the attempts to revise history like to portray.

The vision of what to do with the more powerful technology was also better than Nokia, though still not as good as Apple. The whole direction Nokia kept dragging Series 60 in was a dead end, almost from the very start.

Edit to add: example of what I'm referring to with S60 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_3650 . Just complete madness. Who would waste time on this?

I mean microsoft paid off the CEO of nokia to sink it.

Nokia was worthless by that point.

Even had they run with a wild pivot to Android it would have required the strategic vision to also build an Android app store, which would have upset the various European telcos that made a few extra euros that way.

> Nokia was worthless by that point.

Not according to the value of their stocks.

If Apple don’t like the EU regulations, they’re free to vote with their wallets and stop selling their products there.

The problem is if you go for a free market "vote with their wallets" approach, you end up with a problem like the US did with Microsoft having too high of a market share and control on browsers, media players and operating systems.

Customers can only really vote with their wallets when there is choice and no de facto standard. On top of that, many consumers don't really understand that things like their privacy and and choice has been taken away from them.

I do not agree with all parts of the DMA and I think it's overbearing in some areas but also lacklustre in others but I do think it's important that we don't let monopolies control our lives.

> if Europe actually produced a company with the innovation and scale of Apple.

Except a functional society does not need companies "the scale of Apple" to work.

In fact it's probably the opposite : nobody can beat Apple or Google because they already have too much power worldwide.

Even in the US, where is the free market ? Nobody can create a company that will compete with Apple or Google. Sure, there was an open window for new competitors in the capitalism game in the 90-2010 era with the rise of the home computing but now everything is locked up again.

A functionnal society doesn't need huge actors, it only needs an environment where companies that win the capitalism game don't become trusts and where small companies can shine.

I don't want an european alternative to Apple, I want an ecosystem of companies that specializes in what they are good at and that are forced to work together to be interoperable.

It's hard to make informed choices and vote with your wallet when you're unaware of alternatives. Apple's ban on even mentioning competing options tries to preserve this information gap to the detriment of its customers.

Do you realize that the smartphone revolution started here with Nokia?

Well.. ish. But really it started with iPhone. I've used those Nokia "smartphones". They were less the start of the smartphone revolution than PalmPilot or the IBM PC.

It didn't start with the iPhone. What the iPhone brought was a different interface and user experience.

For the rest, Nokia's "dumb phones" already had MP3 players and all sorts of media (games, videos), downloadable apps, access to the internet, photos, and video recording. They only lacked touch interfaces.

Of course, this was done along with other manufacturers like Sony Ericson, Motorola, Samsung etc.

The behavior of people walking around with media in their phones and using their phones to consume media, capture media and access the internet on-the-go was built by those brands, not by the iPhone.

And this demand and behavior wasn't built with anything like Palm Pilots or the IBM PC, but with regular popular phones - for example, the Motorola Razr line, the Nokia Xpress line, and the Sony Ericson Walkman were products that were launched around 2003-2006, which built these social behaviors.

Things like capturing photos/video, sharing photos and music, and playing multiplayer games were the standard thing to do in my teens with these devices. I only got my first modern smartphone around 2012/2013.

It's undeniable that the iPhone broke the mold with its user interface and experience, which became the standard for UI/UX, but the demand and consumer behavior weren't built by Apple, not even close. They just surfed the wave with a better product.

> It didn't start with the iPhone.

Disagree, but continue...

> What the iPhone brought was a different interface and user experience

Lol. Yea, that's 99% of the entire thing! It's why Android was building a Nokia clone the day before the keynote, and the day after the keynote they changed direction HARD in panic.

> They only lacked touch interfaces.

Well that's not true. They did in fact have touch interfaces too. Just that it wasn't capacitive. And the entire interaction model sucked, the APIs sucked, the graphics sucked, the screen sucked, etc.

> The behavior of people walking around with media in their phones and using their phones to consume media, capture media and access the internet on-the-go was built by those brands, not by the iPhone.

I think you're also forgetting what "the internet" on these devices was. It wasn't the real internet. You couldn't go to normal full websites and have it worked. It was enormously far from it in fact.

> but the demand and consumer behavior weren't built by Apple, not even close. They just surfed the wave with a better product.

There was no wave before BECAUSE the products before were so inferior.

It's maddening that people don't get this. The difference between utter crap and a great product isn't checkboxes on a feature list. It's a thousand tiny details that seem insignificant, and CARING about those things.

If it was just a few UX fixes, Nokia could have turned around and cloned iPhone fast. But they couldn't. Because:

1. They didn't care or understand tiny details.

2. Many many details is something you build up over a long time. You can slap a clone UX over your existing product, but that's not why the iPhone was great.

Let's start with your statement:

> They were less the start of the smartphone revolution than PalmPilot or the IBM PC.

With this in context, you claim that hardware built for productivity was more of a smartphone revolution than the devices that created a market by offering the same benefits, features, and user behaviors we have nowadays (mainly media and entertainment) - let's continue.

> Lol. Yea, that's 99% of the entire thing!

I don't get how that's 99% of a thing.

> Well that's not true. They did in fact have touch interfaces too. Just that it wasn't capacitive. And the entire interaction model sucked, the APIs sucked, the graphics sucked, the screen sucked, etc.

This is the confusing part, here you agree with me that the "dumb phones" had all the main set of features and software in place, but the experience just wasn't as good as the iPhone. All the user behaviors were there.

> There was no wave before BECAUSE the products before were so inferior.

Here I'm not sure if you're claiming that there was no demand for Nokia, Motorola, SE, etc devices? Because if that's it, that's just silly.

> It's maddening that people don't get this. The difference between utter crap and a great product isn't checkboxes on a feature list. It's a thousand tiny details that seem insignificant, and CARING about those things.

Again, this makes no sense. Apple did things differently, but how does that show that the other brands didn't care about their products and user experiences? Have you seen the number of Nokia devices that were released catering to different users?

Every time someone launches something better or different than Apple, means that Apple doesn't care?

I find it hard to follow your logic. Like, the mobile phone market was created by a few brands, which built habits and connected people, ultimately bringing entertainment to their customers (the wave) - yet you believe the Palm Pilot started the Smartphone revolution, not the guys who built the market over decades.

The odd thing is that you're implying that what Apple did with the iPhone could have been done at any point in time prior to 2007. Why didn't Apple do it with the iPod, while others were already using interactive menus with graphics? They didn't care..?

I understand you're passionate about the subject, but I don't understand your point of view. To be clear I'm not saying "Apple didn't do anything special" - they shifted the experience of mobile phones for the better.

But to say that Nokia, Motorola, SE, and other brands contributed less to smartphones than the Palm Pilot is just silly imo.

Apple should remove privacy from their vocabolary.

They keep doing that to try to paint this as a loss for users. Users have much to win with this, as it will give some real competition to the Apple ecosystem, and potentially saving users money. So it's only natural Apple will pull all the cards like saying it threatens users privacy.

They called it on themselves. Were so greedy with access to unlimited capital, bought everything out or undercut with free. And now there are no EU competitors left to lobby for more favorable regulations.