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They use the sign outside for the most hilarious messages. On Google Maps you can see two versions, "IF YOU'RE LOOKING FOR A SIGN HERE IT IS", and "SORRY KIDS SCHOOL TIME AGAIN".

In case you're wondering, here it is: https://maps.app.goo.gl/nbWXb78AHC5oUjTw6

If you’re lucky enough to do something like this I can’t recommend it enough. I bought a second house in my neighborhood instead of renting an office and it made work a hell of a lot more fun. Felt healthier too, because I could open windows or take walks.

Wait, don't I recognize that name? Wait a second... This is THE John Scalzi? When I was a kid I pulled a paperback off of my dad's bookshelf, Old Man's War. Great, take your brain out trashy sci fi, and I mean that in the most positive way possible, it left a big impression on me. Incredible writer, cool that he is still around and has a blog.

He's not only still around, he still writes awesome books.

But yeah, I too was reading without noticing, until I came to the sentence "None of the Scalzis are particularly religious", and thought "wait, Scalzi like John Scalzi? It's not... It is?!"

Another old man’s war series book is going to be released this year

>take your brain out trashy sci fi, and I mean that in the most positive way possible

that's the guy. he's got a new book coming out this month, and is a fun follow on social media too (now on bluesky). i feel like he would be flattered by your description.

Oh wow, i never would have made the connection. 'Lock In' was one of my favorite books growing up.

Yes, that's the guy and he has written a lot of good sci-fi since then. He's pretty active on Mastodon too.

> Not “Church of the Scalzi,” which is actually the name of a church in Venice, Italy.

Oh right, "scalzi" means 'barefoot' (mpl) in Italian!

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scalzo#Italian

Please don’t terrify your contractors. They fix your place, and you want them on your side doing a good job.

> and despite the actions of certain science fiction authors in the past offering precedent, I have no desire to start a cult

> I want to recondition the old pastor’s study, get the organ functional again, and we want to make the sanctuary level more easily accessible via ramps and such

I mean, he _claims_ not to want to start a cult, but I feel like, if starting a cult, these are exactly the sort of facilities one would be recommissioning. Especially the organ.

Granted, for a moment I thought this was Charles Stross (the other Very Online sci-fi author), which would be _far_ more worrying, considering.

I think the frequency of organ-centered cults is lower than you might imagine.

Is this an organ music joke?

(Most cults probably don't have pipe organs, but I feel like it is unquestionably a _plus_ for your cult if you happen to have access to one.)

He also mentioned using the basement for "gatherings" and that immediately set off my cult-alarm bells!

Pretty jealous to be honest, the building itself looks beautiful.

I've noticed something, and I don't know if it's too much of a generalization but I see it a fair bit, so maybe it's generally true.

Generally speaking, non-religious people understand church to be a building. Whereas religious people understand that the people are the church, the building is just a building.

Now granted some of them are really nice buildings, and some are really old, and you can be both religious and really like the building, but the two concepts are still separate.

In other words, to the religious, the use of the building for non-religious purposes is "shrug".

Whereas to the non-religious the idea of turning a church building into something else is some kind of desecration. (Obviously this isn't the case for this article, but I noted the first question as him getting that response, and also the immediate rebuttal that he's starting a cult.)

Anyway, I thought it an interesting, if tangentially observation. And as with all generalizations there will be lots of exceptions.

> In other words, to the religious, the use of the building for non-religious purposes is "shrug".

This isn’t accurate except for perhaps certain parts of Protestantism. To Catholics, Orthodox, probably portions of the Church of England etc, ie a majority of Christianity church buildings are holy and specially blessed. They hold the Eucharist in the Tabernacle which these Churches believe is the body and blood of Jesus under the guise of bread which is the most holy thing for them. In order for these buildings to be used for any other purpose all the holy things would need to be removed and the building specifically deconsecrated.

The Church building is only considered Holy when Christ is considered present for Eucharist. Should it be removed along with the Altar, it only becomes a building, to Catholics at least. This is why abandon Churches can be converted to other things, in Montreal there are examples of these buildings.

OP is correct here by saying that the Church is the people. It’s just that the word has two meanings, the church building and the Church of Christ.

It’s also why sometimes you hear Christians say things like “your family is also your Church”

According to canon law, a Catholic church must be desacralized (or deconsecrated) in order to be licitly used for other, though not just any, purposes[0].

[0] https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/when-a-church-is-de...

In the NT and early history of the [Catholic] church it was explicitly the people and not the building.

Your interpretation of "people and not the building" is pretty unique to Protestantism in the Christian belief, and arguably the central tenet of Methodism. It is absent in much of the history of Christian (and most other monotheistic) beliefs.

I recommend you look at (as an example), what the Catholic Church did since around the conversion of the Romans through to Vatican II. Even when I was a kid (some decades after Vatican II), attending Catholic school and regularly attending mass, the Catholic Church building was considered an incredibly special place by the congregations.

In my school, the chapel (which held a tabernacle), was once used by some well-meaning but incredibly ill-educated pupils to hold a palm reading booth for a school fete fundraiser. When the more traditional Catholics in the faculty found out, they burst in, soaking the pupils and chapel with holy water and latin prayer (first time used in the school since Vatican II! Showed their colours that day!), claiming that to engage in the occult near a tabernacle was an incredibly offensive thing to do, because the space held a tabernacle, end of.

The whole thing about Protestantism is to remove mystery. Research the early history from Luther through the English Tudors and the King James Bible, all the way through to the Mayflower and the reason why they were fleeing Europe to the New World, and you'll see that big and plain. It doesn't mean that a sense of mystery in terms of rituals and rites held in special designated spaces died and went away though, it just means it's less present than it once was.

For many, many people (billions on Earth today), "holy spaces" remain exactly that: consecrated spaces that are in themselves holy regardless of whether a human congregation is present or not. And this is not limited to Christianity either.

As this was a Methodist Church, I suspect most people who used it would consider it "just a building", albeit one with sentimental memories (weddings, funerals, weekly worship), but sure, it's bricks and mortar and balconies and pews and a broken organ. shrug.

It's just that's actually quite an unusual viewpoint on a global scale, for most denominations.

Catholics abandon and sell church buildings all the time. Once you've removed a small handful of sacred items and done the de-consecration-ritual, it is "just a building" to them too.

There are vast numbers of repurposed churches in Catholic countries. Just walk the streets in an Italian city.

I'm not familiar with the specifics for catholics, but it is conceptually not too different from how protestants do it.

With the caveat, best repeated in every post under this article, that of course very strong sentimental feelings can be attached to a church building. You could put a religious dimension on the morality of hurting peoples feelings by destroying or changing a beautiful thing I guess. But, it is not the house itself that is holy in a holy house.

Perhaps, but that was 2000 years ago and not necessarily identical to how people feel/believe today.

Growing up Methodist, we learned it via church camp singalong:

A church is not a building

A church is not a steeple

A church is not a resting place

A church is a people

I am the church

You are the church

We are the church together

All who follow Jesus

All around the world

Yes were the church to-clap!-gether.

I don’t believe in any of it anymore, but it’s still a nice sentiment - the only thing I really miss about Christianity is the community.

Yup I'm gonna second this one. I grew up in Cologne and Christians here generally don't think the Cologne Cathedral [1] (which holds among other things, according to the Church the bones of the three magi) is "just a building" and if you wanted to argue to turn it into a mall next week you'd probably get a pretty strong reaction from members of the church

[1] https://www.wandererscompass.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/...

If you wanted to turn the cathedral of cologne into a mall you’d get a pretty strong reaction from _me_, who’s neither religious nor has ever been to Cologne!

sure but a church building that hasn’t been used in years surely was already deconsecrated

You're kind of proving the point. The building is not the real thing, as any sense in which it is holy (which is a word that means set apart for a special purpose) can be readily undone. The church doesn't cease to exist when that happens. It moves. The same way the Tabernacle (the ancient Tabernacle) moved, which happened on a semi-regular basis. The place is less important than who is there.

Surely if the church was just the people such a ritual of consecration would have fallen by the wayside a long time ago.

Anyway, there are in fact many christians who view churches as sacred in themselves. Good luck painting christianity with any such a wide brush.

The inclusion of the word “just” makes this comment not so relevant to the discussion. Nobody is claiming that.

I'm afraid i'm missing the point of the entire conversation, then. Nobody was claiming church was just a building to begin with either.

It seems like this is confusing The Church with a church.

Notre Dame Cathedral is a church, but you could burn it to the ground tomorrow and it wouldn’t have hardly any impact at all on the persistence of The Church.

[dead]

It's possible that this is generally true, but that's definitely not my perception. Growing up I remember hearing about stories like this [0] where people camped out in a church for over a decade to try to stop it from being closed. As someone who isn't religious, I still can't understand the level of attachment to the building itself, and it's hard to imagine that this would happen from people not ascribing some sort of religious significance to the building itself. That said, I know that there are some notable differences between Catholics and other Christians in terms of veneration, so maybe this perception is just due to my growing up in an area where other types of Christianity weren't as common, and elsewhere in the country where Catholics aren't as common, the generalization would hold more true.

[0]: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/massachusetts-church-protest-11...

I wonder if it is similar to people who camp out in trees to keep them from being cut down. Maybe it is the same sort of veneration in both cases?

“No, stop, this important.”

> Generally speaking, non-religious people understand church to be a building. Whereas religious people understand that the people are the church, the building is just a building.

The word "church" itself is used to refer to the building in several languages; some of the buildings get some fancier word like "cathedral" or "dom church" or just "dom", like the Kölnerdom or Nidarosdomen. It's a type of building the same way that you expect certain things of a Rathaus or office building or detached house.

Of course, it is also used to refer to what in secular contexts would be called a club or organization, like "the church of $country". E.g. if you want Norwegian waffles abroad, Sjømannskirken (literally "The seamen's church") is very likely to have them. Norwegian churches-as-organizations run partially on coffee & waffles.

The only other group I can think of off the top of my head that get called the same as a building is parliament? While with churches it's kind of as if we used just one word to describe a football field, the football team, and that football team's supporters. Homonyms can trip people up.

So for people who aren't in the organization, but know that people associated with that kind of organization take umbrage at a lot of things that they can't easily predict, it's no wonder that churches-the-buildings have mental priority because that's what they actually experience in their daily lives: Buildings that exist in their vicinity, that often represent a sizable investment, and that they might even get invited to for some rituals like marriages and funerals. The … Jesus club is about as visible to them as a local role-playing club, or indoor sports club.

> Whereas religious people understand that the people are the church, the building is just a building.

Many (most?) religions invest enormous amounts in those buildings, some with staggering displays of wealth. Even in many/most towns, the religious institution is the nicest building around.

There are many meanings. Off the top of my head:

1. church meaning a building 2. church meaning an organisation - e.g. "Roman Catholic Church" 3. church militant - all Christians on earth 4. church triumphant - all of redeemed humanity. If you are a universalist (someone who believes all of humanity is saved) this would be synonymous with all of humanity.

I am sure I have missed things out, and there are lots of shades of meaning and different levels with regard to organisations.

Is it the difference between a church building and a temple? The Romans would put a wall (or it could have been a ditch) around some ground. The wall was called a fanum. That which was outside of the fanum was called the profanum (pro = before) or profane. Inside the fanum was sacred or holy ground where the sanctuary was situated. We see this kind of think in Greek Temples, Egyptian Temples, the Temple of Solomon, etc. Perhaps some people view their church buildings similar to how ancients viewed their temples.

> In other words, to the religious, the use of the building for non-religious purposes is "shrug".

Try that in a mosque please.

Also, a couple of years ago a French (Benjamin Ledig) youtuber/tiktoker/whatever was fined for filming himself dancing in a parisian catholic church.

As you said:

> And as with all generalizations there will be lots of exceptions.

Yes, the Word of God says the "church" is either the whole set of all believers in Jesus Christ or a local group of them. It's people who together make up His "body" while He is the "head." Example verses:

https://www.gotquestions.org/what-is-the-church.html

False teaching that contradicts God's Word often tries to elevate specific people or buildings while the Word elevates Christ. Over time, more religions started focusing a lot on their buildings. They identified as Christian even though their practices were getting further and further from Biblical examples. This caused much confusion.

Our church would just call it an old building that used to house a church (group of people). Hopefully, the members are still gathering to worship God, read the Word, share Christ, and love each other. Those are what's important.

This depends greatly on the denomination. Pious Catholics care greatly about their church buildings.

Disappointing he says he is not using it to start a cult. I'd start a cult. Church building first, cult second.

If you're starting a cult, always build instead of buy!

Hmmm, if you're starting a cult as a way to tap into tax exemptions, I suspect your accountants and lawyers would have long heated arguments about exactly how to best structure the church building ownership or lease/rental. Is your cult's meeting place a capex or an opex?

If you want to start a cult to get out of taxes, forget the church - you need a boat.

I mean the most notorious example very much had both.

Consider https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraser_Mansion. My great great grandfather lived there till he jumped to his death from Brown's Hotel in London. See Richard Cory.

I live in Detroit and don't understand why everyone wants to work remove AND live in the most expensive places in the world. To me working remote means I can live anywhere I want. Why not live where you get a lot more for your money?

> Why not live where you get a lot more for your money?

People live in expensive places not because they are required to, but because they find these places appealing. There are much more arts, culture, food, smart people, better schools, etc. Look at the prices people are willing to pay to live in NYC, parts of the Bay Area, etc. That is supply and demand.

They are getting a lot more (of what they want) for their money. Others live in Aspen for the same reason - though they want different things. I hope you are fortunate enough to want things that aren't in quite so high demand.

If all the smart people in San Francisco who are there to be around other smart people moved to Columbus, Ohio, they could save a ton on housing costs.

But all the people moving there would drive up housing costs.

Either you are joking, or some people in SF are now even less likely to move to Columbus. :)

Fun fact: last I checked on Numbeo, Columbus Ohio is more expensive to live in than Tokyo.

Of course, the weak yen probably has something to do with that, and also the relatively smaller home sizes in Japan, but still, kinda crazy.

Japan is kind of a special case, as the country in general is depopulating.

Tokyo isn't; and that's not why living here is (relatively) cheap.

That’s the stated reason, but it doesn’t factor in social trends and just general imitative behavior. In my experience the vast majority of people want to live in popular cities because other people want to live there, not because they’ve done a rational analysis of the differences in food, culture, etc.

“Hacking” this by figuring out exactly what you want and finding it in a less in-demand place is a great move if you work remotely.

> In my experience the vast majority of people want to live in popular cities because other people want to live there, not because they’ve done a rational analysis of the differences in food, culture, etc.

Isn't that the "culture" of the city? People want to live there because they want to be near the other cool people who live there. Culture means much more than if it has an art gallery.

I wouldn’t define culture as “I want to live in a place because other people want to live in a place.”

Sure, absolutely larger cities have more cultural events going on, but in my experience most people aren’t analyzing the different options and aren’t utilizing all of those amenities when they actually live there.

New York is a classic example. A lot of people say they move there to be closer to museums, but most only end up visiting them once or twice a year, at most. This is because they like the idea, the perception, of being a person that lives in a city with the MET and MoMa, etc.

I really like NYC, for reference, so I’m not putting down the city or other large cities. But there is also a ton of hype and imitative behavior that makes people focus exclusively on the coastal cities. There are plenty of cities across America which have hip arts districts, coffee shops, great museums, nice architecture, etc. etc. but they tend to be glossed over.

At the end of the day, it's tough to live in a place like SF or NYC. A lot of people get weeded out. In my experience with living in SF, the people I know who continue to live there do so because they genuinely love it and wouldn't want to be anywhere else.

Most people aren't going to continue to put up with the costs and challenges of big city life if they actually don't care all that much and could be just as happy in whatever places you're suggesting.

I dunno, I've looked at cheap places and generally it seems like they're "cheap for a reason" to me.

Not that they're always terrible or anything, but there's often certain things missing that I'd rather have around. But maybe someday.

Well we have evidence - 'the stated reason' - on one hand, and none on the other. As someone who likes those sorts of things, living in places like that is completely worthwhile if affordable.

> “Hacking” this by figuring out exactly what you want and finding it in a less in-demand place is a great move if you work remotely.

I referenced that in my GP comment - absolutely, don't imitate others, find what you want!

That's easier in places like NY and SF, where people are receptive to that and they don't enforce conformity or think you are too outside the pale with some wild idea or behavior. You're startup idea might not get much support in much of the world.

I've worked remotely for years and currently live in Hong Kong (a city where rent is close to Manhattan prices). Why do I live there? Because I appreciate the restaurants available, the variety of food, the regular theater performances from all over the world, the easy access to hiking trails and beaches while living in a densely populated city, access to museums and activities for my kid.

I was raised in a tiny village, I hate the countryside, it's so utterly boring, I want a short commute to all the activities the city offers and I love public transport.

My grandparents raised my parents in large cities. My parents raised their children in small towns. All of the children moved to large cities.

I often describe the town I was raised in as "a great place to raise children and an awful place to be a teenager".

First time I went to HK in the 90s, I remember being insanely impressed that I could go down the lift in our hotel and step out into an underground department store and food court full of stalls. And then from there, a tiny walk to countless other things. Not going to appeal to everyone but I can absolutely see why it appeals to some.

Because corporations literally forbid people working for them and living in some cheap places. My corporation forbids this, I must live withing commute distance of any of our offices, despite working full remote for years. They also made a weak try to shove us back in the office in 2023, but that was universally ignored and not enforced thankfully.

My city affords me, with a 20 minute drive, access to Michelin star quality restaurants, events that other people travel across the planet to attend, constant awesome concerts with the biggest stars, and hundreds (thousands?) of mom-and-pops. I friggin love it here, and it’s only like 40 minutes to some of the most beautiful natural landscapes I could hope for.

I COULD live in $cheaperCity, but then I’m paying tons of money to go somewhere I actually want to be, not to mention needing to plan a whole trip for many of these things, which gets way harder when you’re one of millions trying to get to the city for that event.

> To me working remote means I can live anywhere I want. Why not live where you get a lot more for your money?

Sadly that only goes if you don't intend to leave your house for anything but grocery shopping.

If you'd rather hang out with friends at a concert and a pub after, you're stuck with the wanted and expensive places.

Location, location, location. Some parts of the country are nicer than others. Most people don't consider rural areas where the land is flat and mostly cornfields (with a possibility of tornadoes) to be a nice place to live. I live about an hour from the ocean and an hour from year round skiing in the mountains. Lots of hills and forests. I had to pay $250,000 for a 4,000 sq foot home on a wooded acre when I bought it three years ago, but I don't mind spendin that much when I am close into the city and so close to nature.

It's very simple: they like the benefits of living in the expensive places, as distinct from closeness to work in particular.

As a remote tech worker who moved from the Bay to a (much) cheaper place - I agree that the expensive places are expensive for a reason - but if one can articulate what specifically they're looking for, it's almost always possible to find it in a significantly cheaper cost-of-living area.

I'm not sure that's true. I occasionally look around and can't really find anything all that cheap that fits my preferences, but maybe I'm too picky.

* Politically blue or at least purple

* Reasonably dense/transitable by something other than a car (public transit and/or bike)

* Wide variety of restaurants/groceries (mostly in terms of ethnicities/cultures), especially Asian food

* Low(-ish) crime rate

The third one is maybe the hardest, because it basically requires a substantial population, though number 2 is pretty hard in the US as well.

> if one can articulate what specifically they're looking for, it's almost always possible to find it in a significantly cheaper cost-of-living area.

Isn't that the basic essential of designing tech - the narrower your specs the less expensive your solution, so articulate them very specifically.

I don't know that I buy "almost always" though. If your spec is world-class _____, you probably need to be in one of a few cities.

Because I don’t pick where I live based on why I can get for my money. That’s like - the least of my concerns.

This is the definition of gentrification. And not a bad thing but this is where it starts...

> a company to develop creative projects that were not my novels

This may be related to Netflix movie/series adaptation of "Old Man's War" ?

https://reactormag.com/netflixs-adaptation-of-john-scalzis-o...

I don't want for much and don't need much more money than I currently have, I used to say before reading this

The church cost only $75,000; because it is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradford,_Ohio

If you work remotely, this seems a good example of why you might consider moving away from a major city.

While he doesn't explicitly say it, I'm going to bet that the renovation, and likely even just the essential parts (roof, rewiring etc) of the renovation cost considerably more than that.

I live in Bangkok. So I'm over here searching for abandoned Buddhist temples lol

If you wanted to actually use it day to day though, it would cost so much more. Just the temperature control for such area would be either super expensive or require a complete redesign of the space to split it into lower floors.

It would, but that's partly a matter of size, and a large house will cost a lot to heat or cool as well. I'm in the UK (cool climate), and there are a lot of smaller chapels which have been converted to use as houses quite successfully.

So its about 45 minutes (by car) from a city of about 130,000 people.

That's hardly the middle of nowhere.

All a matter of perspective, I suppose. I'd call that the middle of nowhere, but I've always lived either in a medium-sized (>1 million people) city or its suburbs.

In particular it doesn't seem to have public transport at _all_, at least per Google Maps; I'd consider anywhere where your only option to get to a city was to drive to be serious middle of nowhere, though I gather that this is a more common condition in the US.

For a lot of people, "45 minutes by car to get to a city of any real size" is very much in the middle of nowhere.

Those people very badly need some perspective, then. That is not remotely the middle of nowhere.

It just depends on your perspective.

Honestly, Americans are probably more tolerant and accepting of long distances compared to most peer countries. 45 minutes of driving to hit some kind of city is very far most of the time in Japan or most of Europe, where the population density is higher than the states.

Growing up in the UK, 45 minutes was about the ‘if we’re going there in the evening we’re going to need to get a hotel’ boundary. Now I live in the US it’s a short drive.

It’s amazing how perspective changes. If you haven’t experienced it I suspect it’s impossible to understand, because this feels crazy to write. It’s true though.

that again depends on where you are in Europe... in most of Germany you're right. large parts of Norway Sweden Finland? not so much...

It is probably true that in a majority of those land areas (Finland, Sweden, Norway) you are more than 45 minutes of driving from the next proper city.

However, the proportion of people who live like that is not very high. People mostly live where other people live.

and yet plenty of people have a commute _within_ the city that is longer than that

Oh for sure, but they're still 'somewhere' while commuting.

I lived in a place that was a 30 min drive from a similar sized place (Cambridge, UK). It totally felt like the middle of nowhere. It's not so much about the numbers but about the feeling of a place:

* No transport links means total dependence on car,

* No natural features of any note, in particular no rivers or hills,

* Unknown to people outside of the very small population that lives there,

* Hard to convince people to come and visit you and when they do they're disappointed.

[flagged]

Please don't do this here.

what exactly?

He paid 75K which is not bad though.

That’s somewhere in the neighborhood of an entire college tuition.

Question from Eastern European: Which religion is prevalent in the USA? Masonic orders? Scientology? Atheism?

I noticed that there you have more masonic temples than churches in every city.

It's Christianity by a wide margin (about 2/3rds of the population). I'm not sure where you get the idea there are more masonic lodges than churches. Just a quick check for my state, Massachusetts, shows about 300 masonic lodges and about 4000 churches.

> I noticed that there you have more masonic temples than churches in every city.

... Eh?

The US probably has more churches, as in physical buildings, per capita than anywhere else in the world.

Freemasonry isn't a religion, though it has vague religious trappings, but in any case it's fairly absurd to suggest that there are more masonic buildings than churches in the US.

culturally-Christian atheists, mostly, followed by a lot of the less-mainline versions of Christianity

Pew polls show about 5% or slightly less identify as atheists. About 30% (including atheists) are non-religious. About 60% identify as Christian. Then a few other groups that are 1-2%: Jewish, Mormon, Buddhist, Muslim.

Your statement of "mostly" is an extreme (10x) overstatement.

The text above was from memory. I just looked it up and I was pretty accurate: https://www.pewresearch.org/religious-landscape-study/

I take umbrage at another aspect of your statement: "culturally Christian atheists". I've heard this pointed specifically at me by people saying things like, "You are Christian, you just don't know it." That say that because I tend to be sensitive/kind/helpful/low ego. Yes, good Christians should be those things, but that doesn't mean that Christianity owns those traits or that those traits didn't exist and weren't valued before Christianity came along.

Evangelical Protestants, Catholics, and mainline Protestants make up 60% of the US population. Atheism isn't that common, maybe 5-10% of the population depending on definition.