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Author here. It’s a surprise seeing this posted while I’m in the middle of traveling. Happy to answer any questions! If you’re curious, the tech stack is static assets bundled with sveltekit/vite and hosted on gitlab pages + a minimal go backend.

What you've built is a work of art, it blew my mind the first time I came across it. I love the completeness of vision (boomboom tss).

I've only just realised that you've opensourced it all so I haven't looked at the code yet, but a couple of Qs:

- is there anything that the old wave your fingers at the screen pose detect model did better the new screenpalm method? I always wondered if you were detecting the angle of motion (pronation?) for each finger to tilt its keywell, and I guess it's maybe harder to do that with the new method.

- have you ever thought about using the measurements for one hand to spot measurement outliers in the other? Would it ever make sense to generate a symmetrical keyboard from the combined measurements of both hands?

- have you thought about collaborating with other keyboard designers to add their designs to the app and give them a cut? For example the Cygnus[0] is a stunning keyboard; I'm not sure if it is parametrically generated, but I do remember thinking that I'd absolutely pay money to get one tailored to my hand geometry, and then wondering whether you could ever pull off building a designer marketplace/ecosystem out of the whole thing, maybe with a little sdk. It's one thing that the aliexpress copycat sellers can't copy.

Also somehow only just realised that you have a blog. I might go read it.

[0]: https://kbd.news/Cygnus-1.0-2307.html

Thanks so much! Answering your great qs:

1) I still have the waving your fingers stage (it's after the screenpalm), but it now walks you through different finger motions so that the results are more consistent than waving your fingers all around. It's detecting then angle of motion, but I'm so far only using this for building the 3D hand model. The old method had better UX and fewer bugs, but the new one will more accurately measure the size of your hand.

2) I've never thought of that! I sometimes generate symmetrical keyboards for myself, simply because it’s easier to edit when both sides are synced. But I ultimately think it’s better to fit each hand independently.

3) The cygnus keyboard is super cool. I’ve made one and modified the STEP file to change the sockets. The fusion 360 files for it are published, so it likely has some parametrization but not anywhere close enough to achieve the flexibility of the Cosmos model.

There’s a tradeoff between customizability and how perfect the keyboard looks and feels. I’ve opted to go all-in on customizability, because to my knowledge no other keyboard design does this. I make as few assumptions about your keyboard as I can, so that Cosmos works with a single key, small mouse-like modules with a trackpad/ball and a few keys, or a proper keyboard shape. The downside is that what I’m doing is akin to teaching a robot to paint, whereas I’d compare designs like the Cygnus that place more constraints on the keyboard shape to a human painting. Until AI becomes sufficiently skilled at 3D design, the human painting will be more creative and skilled than the robot, and I can't bridge both types of design.

1. What about a thumb cluster with 4 keys in a row? IDK if it's workable, maybe not. My experience with Ergodox says pressing top row on thumb cluster is too clumsy. (Maybe it's easier with dactyl-like keyboards?)

2. On Ergodox EZ, and non-English layout, I need more keys. Unfortunately, the right side corner of ISO keyboard has to be distributed among other places on Ergodox EZ. (I'd love to have home/pgup/pgdn/end column somewhere, like on laptops. Maybe the rightmost end of kbd is not the best place for it, IDK.)

3. Adding extra row/column causes lower row collide with the thumb cluster. I guess, it's reasonable, but I don't know what's the workaround. (remove the lower row completely?) https://imgur.com/a/vdfOLq1

Good idea about finger scanning.

I tried the scan the hand and simulate features. Will the editor make different halves of the keyboard?

Also, thumb bends differently than in the simulator. :)

to be clear about non-English layout in ErgoDox EZ. In ISO keyboard, there are 3 keys (two square brackets and foot/inch key), that don't fit in EZ's main keys block. I got 2 options for them:

1. Put them on the rightmost column, but it's unclear where the `]` has to go -- lower, or upper.

2. Use the rightmost wide column of keys for some special keys (like home/pgup/pgdn/end), but have to redistribute these 3 keys elsewhere.

Not sure the specific problems with a non-english layout, but if it helps with some ideas this is the layout I use for my keyboard (so far)[1].

[ and ] go on the inner columns on either side and '/" goes where it normally would be on an ansi qwerty layout.

The page up/down and home/end keys live on a temporary (hold) layer under the arrow keys, which is a habit I picked up from many years of using mac laptops where fn + arrow keys is how you get those keys anyway.

Layers 0 and 3 are the really important ones, 1 and 2 are just the defaults from Ergodox. And while they are assigned, I currently haven't been using the capslock, the lower-left ', the lower-right [ ] and cmd+enter keys or the Meh key so those would be freed up for use if needed. I also turned on the "auto-shift" functionality, so if you liked that it would also free up the left and right shifts for other use.

The letter layout is "middlemak"[2] which I found to be more comfortable than qwerty or colemak on the ortholinear layout, and a bit easier to learn than colemak because it shares a lot of keys with qwerty. But that may not be relevant for you if you're using a non-english key set.

[1]: https://configure.zsa.io/ergodox-ez-st/layouts/pNO0G/latest/... [2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/Middlemak/

Interesting layout. I see I forgot the `=` also does not fit in ED-EZ.

My problem with it is 1) lack of F11 & F12. 2) important keys in upper row of the thumb block. How do you press those keys without stopping everything and looking at the kbd?

I've been thinking of adding F11 and F12 (and F13) to the keys under `Del` on layer 3 (basically the same thing ED does by default on layer 1). As for the thumb block, that took me some time to work out because I thought hitting all those buttons would be easier than it is. So what you see is effectively my attempt to duplicate as many buttons in places that generally make them fit the combinations I need to hit when I need to hit them.

On the left side, `Cmd` is the first button because on a mac, that's the most important modifier key and that position is the "natural" position for my hands.

Next `enter` (or really on a mac, `return`) with the alternative function of being `Ctrl` if held down. I rarely need `Cmd + Ctrl` but those two are pretty big tagets and easy to mash together.

For the smaller buttons, the layer switch is accessible without a large hand shift, so that is why its in its position at the bottom.

Above I have `Option/Alt` and `Ctrl` above that. The idea is not to use those all that often, but to use them if I need `Ctrl + Alt` or need the `Alt` key and can't use the one on the right side for some reason. If I need to use these two in that position, I do usually have to look at the keys (though currently as I work through learning middlemak... I'm looking at the keys a lot anyway).

Finally `Del` is where it is mostly because it doesn't require a huge hand shift (though I usually press with my index finger instead of thumb), and I liked having a forward delete on a dedicated key. Again bearing in mind I'm used to typing on laptop keyboards/75% layouts, so my other usual is `Fn + Backspace` for a forward delete, so needing to shift my hand isn't a huge concern for me.

On the right side, the same thought went into laying things out in a way that made sense for my habitual modifier usage while being as redundant as possible. On the far right, space obviously, again in the position that's most "natural" to my hands.

Followed by another `enter/return` with again the alternate function, this time of `Option/Alt` when held. Having two enter keys isn't something I make a lot of use of (I don't alternate which hand is enter when typing for example) but it allows me to make use of that alternate functionality and still be able to hit enter with a modifier held down and no need to move my hands or find one of the harder to hit keys. `Option/Alt` takes this position because Ctrl has it on the other side and also because my most common `Option + ${key}` combos are `Option + Left/Right Arrow` for skipping by word and the arrows are on the other half so no weird hand contortions (and again, coming from a laptop, I usually did that with two hands anyway. Incidentally, this also means I can use the layer3 hold on the left hand, and option + the arrows in the letter cluster (ijkl on a qwerty layout) that I programmed into layer 3 if I really need to do a lot of arrowing around.

`Cmd` sits in the lower left because again, it's the most common modifier in macOS. I don't often need the left side one, but it gets more ease of access than ctrl because when I need it, I need it.

`Ctrl` sits above option and again, the aim here isn't to use it on its own. In this case, the position allows me to shift my thumb up slightly and easily hit a `Ctrl + Alt` key combination (and for that matter shifting left instead of up gives a pretty easy `Cmd + Option`

Lastly Pg Up/Dn are there because I like having dedicated buttons for them instead of needing a layer shift. I don't often use them during a typing session but more for paging through docs or reference material, so usually my hands are off the keys in the first place, and needing to look at them if I'm not finding it by quick feel isn't a huge problem for me.

I should also say this is probably by 5th or 6th iteration on those clusters and it will probably change more in the future. I'm slowly honing in to something that I really like, but it has taken some serious paying attention to what I actually do. My first attempt was a lot more "normal" with a row of modifiers in order, or my second attempt that put the modifiers all on the small keys and used the larger ones for more layer shifts (hence all the Cmd + Key items on layer 3). Turns out I'm not a huge fan of constantly switching layers, probably because I'm a terrible touch typist who on a regular qwerty keyboard mostly uses just 3 fingers on each hand so keeping my hands in one place and letting the keys "come to me" with layeer shifts feels wrong.

Thanks for the detailed description. The idea with different function on hold is interesting. I wonder that you don't have the Tab key. Is it not used on Mac at all?

I also tried different layouts, experimenting about half a year, and in the end found the backspace under right thumb quite convenient (probably bc I still make a lot of typos on EDEZ).

Tab is up next to the Q on the left side, same place in qwerty. I tried using backspace in the thumb cluster for a bit, and it was convenient, but I found because I don't have good "home row" discipline, I was accidentally deleting too often.

I used this to build my current keyboard a few months ago. It was my first hand-wired keyboard, and this made it much more approachable. Thanks for creating it!

Have you considered doing this for mice? Im fine with a normal keyboard, but mice, maaaaan. My hand doesnt sit right on any mouse, and my hand is always dragging on the pad, etc.

I briefly thought about like a form fitting style, where you go and have your hand scanned in resting position on a dummy mouse, and then the mouse body is formed for your hand. This could also allow for button customizations as well.

It could really use a way to control the spread of the button around the track ball. Just to make them closer together. The palmrest should also grow wider when columns are added to the keyboard.

Also, would be great to have an option of adding a USB hub on the inner edge for plugging in a USB key or adding a USB plug on the outside for a mouse.

On the advanced tab, you can adjust the vertical spacing of the thumb cluster to move keys closer together. As for USB hubs, at some point I need to draw a line and stop adding options. You can download a STEP file of the keyboard and edit it in CAD, or if you’re looking for something easier to learn, I recommend editing the STL file in tinkercad. If you don’t mind plugging in the mouse to the back, you can configure custom-sized connector cutouts in advanced mode.

Great work @rianadon!

Forget how cool the keyboards are (they are very cool) - this website is just awesome in so many ways. There are like, 5 things on here that made me say "wow, I didn't know a web browser could do that" as I went through the setup. The hand scanning, the parametric 3d modeling, the WebRTC stuff for establishing comms with my phone?! Even if you've got no interest in weird crazy keyboards, this site is just a great tech demo for some of the wild stuff a web browser can do these days.

I've got half a keeb printed that I generated here, I really need to restart that project at some point...

I've had so many keyboards that I can't even count them. I've owned five mechanical ones alone. Out of the ergonomic ones, I've only had one - a Microsoft and it was pretty nice. Almost all of them have been replaced because they broke. Either the keys stop working (most often) or the stabilizers start failing.

In my opinion, the best keyboards are the ones that are very easy to clean :) Ideally, switches should be chosen based on your hands since everyone has different preferences. I'm currently using Keychron K5 SE ultra-slim with Low Profile Optical hot-swappable "Banana" switches, and it's the most comfortable keyboard I've ever had — and it's not even that expensive (for a mechanical keyboard). Before that, I had SteelSeries' top model, and it broke after about a year.

Building custom keyboards is next-level, and I think I'll pass on that. What matters most is that it's comfortable to type on and easy to clean. A piece of advice for beginners: don't buy keyboards from Logitech or Apple. They're overrated and not worth their price.

I feel like I am your hardware destroying cousin. For me it's mice, not keyboards.

I've had the same keyboard for like a decade, but I go through mice every 3-6 months. I've tried logitech / corsair / no-name / razor. 90% of the time I replace a mouse because of phantom double clicks or the mouse3 button just ceasing to work.

More rarely, the mouse will reconnect cycle over and over, or the scroll wheel will break.

I don't THINK I abuse them, but my body count indicates maybe I'm too hard on them and don't know it.

Maybe we need hardware that'll give us data on how mean we are to them so we can gain perspective. :p

It may be due to the hardware most constructors use and how they use it.

If you're ready for 1h of info on some switch and how they're misused in mice enjoy this in-depth video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5BhECVlKJA

I think the gaming mouse market is ripe for a ruggerized mouse with only optional software which does not require some account creation if you don't want to. If you could make it cheap enough you could call it the 2CV.

You can disassemble and replace mouse switches quite easily and very cheaply if you already own a soldering iron and some basic tools - mouse switch failure is the typical reason for misclick double click problem

This is a skill I would benefit to learn.

I'm using very niche mouse nowadays - Bloody. Weirdly they work ok, they have (IMHO) good parameters, if you are not a gaming master race. I was using two of them, each for 3 years and changed only because I lost replacement for the "legs". Also the first one started to loose some material on the button - probably because of cleaning spray I was using.

I've had a CST trackball mouse for about 10 years with no problem...

/end anecdata

ummmm what? I have had an MX Master Mouse for over 8 years and as an automotive engineer i have dropped it numerous times while testing vehicles, inside the vehicle, while getting out of the vehicle, just walking from desk to the cars in parking lots... and it still survived 8 years! what are you doing to your mouse exactly?

Do they make them the same as they did 8 years ago? It seems that whenever I want to replace a product I really enjoyed 10 years ago, the replacement is a cost-reduced piece of junk.

Counterpoint/anecdata, I've had 3 MX Master mice and 2 died in under a year and the third lasted about 2 weeks past the 2 year warranty expiration. And this was babying them, no mistreatment.

I gave up and switched to a clone (Rapoo MT760) that I actually like more.

I click a lot? I don't feel like I'm putting the hammer to them. They just all die.

I've had many mice, and I've never had one fail. I've got mice that are over 20 years old and still work.

So unless you are the hulk and not aware of it, I have to wonder if something else in your environment is affecting them.

Do you buy them all from the same retailer? Do you live underwater? Or next to a high power transmission station?!

Logitechs high end mice are lovely to use but garbage build quality. That little spring under left button gives out far too easily.

Its possible I click hard and certainly they got above average use but 3 died in 5 or 6 years

I've never broken a mechanical keyboard, but I have gone through a few mice. None of my MX mice (MX Master, MX Anywhere) have failed, but only gaming mice. I have a feeling gaming mice just aren't built to last, especially in recent years as brands have chased lighter and lighter mice, likely sacrificing durability.

Kailh GM 8.0 (1) switches are supposed to be long-lasting. The switches in my Logitech mouse started to fail so I replaced them with the GM 8.0s - they are very clicky and still going strong.

If I was to order more, I'd go with softer switches - the GM 8.0 is a tad hard to click for games with repetitive clicking.

1: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3256804334576149.html

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I destroyed my beloved Logitech trackball's PCB trying to desolder its switches, which had become unreliable, but for the mouse, saw someone on YouTube heat all three leads of the switch at once until they could lift it straight off the PCB - this was far easier than trying to clean the solder off each lead and made the process almost easy.

Maybe it's time you switch to a trackball.

I'm the trackball destroying cousin. I have yet to have one last two years in the last 10 or 12 years since I switched from mice.

Literally less than two years? In the EU you are probably eligible for a replacement, especially if some non-moving part (like sensors you mention below) fails.

I would prefer of course if producers made their products more sturdy (less e-waste).

What is breaking? FYI, you need to remove the ball from time to time and remove the dust that might be blocking the optical sensors.

Usually sensors stop working. I had a Kensington slimblade whose tracking light just stopped turning on, for example. No amount of cleaning will bring it back.

"You’ve clicked Mouse1 2.3 million times and scrolled 12 miles this month. Chill out!"

But this is just because mice are terrible. Trackpad is so much better.

It’s frustrating how even premium brands can break down so quickly

the microsoft ergonomic kb is vastly underrated

I used this generator to build myself my own keyboard and the tool was extremely helpful. I went through a bunch of prototypes and I don't think it's possible to create a customized keyboard for yourself in one attempt.

I made a fairly extensive build log from start to finish including how I got the integrated trackball to work together with QMK here:

https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2024/11/26/building_my_ulti...

Very nice write up of the process, thank you. Are you happy with it now that som time has passed?

Yes, I'm extremely happy with it.

Jugglernaut: your comment is dead so I can't respond, but yes I'm extremely happy with it. I don't feel a need to change anything.

This looks awesome but I think I’m paralyzed by all of the possibilities. My Kinesis Advantage 2 has served me well for years. I wonder if anyone has switched from one to a custom board?

I switched from a Kinesis Advantage 2 to a Glove80 over 1.5 years ago (not custom, I know) and I love it.

I also made some Dactyl Manuforms, but their key wells are not as nice as the Advantage, let alone the Glove80. They also have pretty bad thumb clusters (though with Cosmos it's configurable), not a good palm rest, etc. The only custom board I would be interested in (if the Glove didn't happen) would be:

https://github.com/wizarddata/Ergo-S-1

Since it also seems to have good palm rests, etc.

I've done the switch! My 2c:

If the Kinesis is working for you, I would not switch. It's an extremely high quality board and most of these Dactyl's are all attempts to replicate the Kinesis at a more accessible price point and/or with higher amounts of customizability. The tradeoff is that they tend to be extremely fragile, have really poor build quality, and have zero to none customer support attached.

However, the KA doesn't work for everybody. I find it too big and the switches too heavy. So I opted for a custom approach, which sadly only survived about 4 months.

I switched to a Cyboard Imprint, and had them print me a 6x6 Kinesis-style layout. They had me take hand photos and tweaked the print to my hand.

My reasons to switch were:

- better thumb cluster (more buttons reachable)

- split keyboard (better ergo placement)

- slightly optimized key placement (nice to have)

- QMK firmware (good for a laugh, fun to hack, can program hyper/super keys into firmware)

checkout https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/

Ive used this several times, I paid for pro. Really like it! Check out the hand recognition, it’s super cool (albeit, not terribly useful).

There’s a very active and helpful community on discord too.

do you end up with a finished keyboard or is this giving you DIY plans?

It looks like it gives you DIY plans but there is also an option to get a finished keyboard - this leads to a page with some error messages in it though.

Once I scan my hand, does this mean the creator will be able to check out as me at whole foods?

This makes me want to go back to making a custom keyboard again. The feature to scan your hands is interesting, but I can't seem to get it to work at all. I got it to measure the length of my digits, but when it came to measuring how flexible they are I could never get it to complete. On top of that the detection seemed to freak out a lot and the right hand model was screwed up. Overall this does seem really cool, but more something I'll bookmark to try later.

Hmm, this is definitely intriguing but how accurate is that hand scan? And will the resulting keyboard really feel that much better than a standard ergonomic setup?

Accurate enough, on the visual check it gives you. I have somewhat away-from-the-mean hands and I'd expect anything that moves their shape while typing to less bunched-up to be noticeably more comfortable.

I can test this, in fact - I'm already building a custom keyboard, although it's a) not with this generator, and b) intentionally closely matching another keyboard I own. I could do another with the horizontal spacings from this site while keeping everything else the same, and see if it's preferable.

I love this... almost.

My daily driver is a planck (flat rectangle, no num row) which I designed to lighten the load on my pinkies. I moved the left alpha keys further left and the right alpha keys futher right, so I have two columns in the center which I use for Ctrl,Alt,<,>,[,],(, and ). These get different keycaps so I can navigate it by texture. I love it, using other keyboards my pinkies always start to hurt after a while, but with this thing I can really crank.

I'd like to depart from the flat rectangle form factor, while keeping all of the things I love about my planck, and using advanced mode here I was able to get pretty darn close. What's missing is the bottom left and right corner keys, which I consider "palm-press" keys. If I disable the num row and enable the inner keys, the outermost columns only have three keys. I'd appreciate a checkbox that gave them four, with the fourth awkwardly low for pinky use but accessible for a "palm" press (not sure if the meaty part under the knuckle counts as the palm but that's what I mean anyway).

With the right curvature there's probably also opportunity to do the same thing under the index knuckle.

If you select one of the keys in the keyboard preview on the right, you can add and move keys around to wherever you like :) That should allow you to put keys under your knuckle.

Speaking of palm presses, someone shared a “palmtyl” design with several keys under the palm in the discord (here’s a video: https://youtu.be/D8ev08mnSmg). It’s an interesting way of squeezing in more keys without requiring finger travel.

very cool, thanks

I would buy a Glove80 again instead of going through the hassle of building my own keyboard.

Maybe I would lose some personalization, but I would keep my sanity.

Just duckduckwent it, and turned out I had seen it already. My doubt about it is how do you press Shift+F12?

The layout is fully customizable. That being said I just stick with the default, works well for me.

By default F12 is on the lower layer "V" key.

https://docs.moergo.com/glove80-user-guide/typing-with-glove...

It's really not that bad IMO. It takes some effort for sure, but not enough to become insane...

No, please, I don't have the time for this, why does it have to be so cool :cry:

Hand scan doesn't work for me in Chrome on Windows (waiting for first frame), but it did load on Edge. Stuck in the hand poses. What does this mean: "Stretch out your hands, point your fingertips towards each other, and rotate your palms downwards." I tried everything I could think of, but it won't advance.

some info came across discord for https://cyboard.digital/ about this last year, very similar concept.

I have 2 Cyboard 6x6 keyboards, printed with a Kinesis layout (so I can get the arrow keys on the lower row) and customized to my hand.

The customization/website wasn't as fancy - I just sent in photos of my hand – but that's ok.

I really love the quality, and the owner is super nice, responsive, and has great service.

Cosmos is awesome. Ryan is a lovely and incredibly helpful on his Discord. The community built around it is quite chilled out and helpful as well.

This is fucking lit! I can only imagine the amount of work went into building something like this. Also, nice domain name :)

I've always wanted this and had daydreamed of building this before!. If it supports QMK and ortholinear, I'll have to get this. I've always dreamed of building a keyboard into the arm rests of my chair.

I’ve tried the arm rest thing. Not very comfortable unfortunately. At least for me.

The UI and color palette for the site is cool. The 3D tech is neat too, I'm not personally a fan of these keyboard designs (fine with 65% single mech) but really great software.

what keyboard do you currently use?

I am not that hardcore of a mech keyboard person where I build my own/lube switches.

I primarily use a Durgod Hades 68, I have to have the dedicated arrow keys on the bottom right. I have a bunch of others similar design. My problem was instead of buying as switch tester I started buying random keyboards with different switches so I now have too many. I also used to use the Apple magic keyboards those small ones with a cylinder battery holder.

Just got a Cantor Remix keyboard myself. Might have checked this out otherwise, but a big advantage of the flat designs is they fit in my pocket.

Are there any decent open source datagloves?

You mean Datahand? There is lalboard: https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard (there is also Svalboard, but I don't think it is open source).

no, I actually meant datagloves, so you don't need a table.

Oh wild, had never seen them before.

I might have missed it but do the designs come with pcb as well?

Love the domain name.

I've been waiting for someone to do this...

it's fun. How does the MX, Choc, and Alps switches compare? Do you have personal preferences?

This is disgustingly cool, and if I wasn't already very settled on my Voyager I'd be all over it